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Maybe a compromise between the two positions here: What if you just tell her that there's nothing she plans to do in July that she can't begin now, and that you're unwilling to remain in a celibate marriage, Rivers? That way you're still taking a "hard stance" to facilitate her taking action, while still respecting yourself and maintaining your fidelity to a marriage that isn't definitively over. You said:

I think she realizes that I have needs for connection in my life and I’d prefer to connect with her. If she isn’t available, I’d rather divorce and have the freedom to pursue connection and intimacy on my terms instead of continuing to be held hostage emotionally and sexually.

Have you told her that explicitly? I feel like that sums it up perfectly.

And can I just say, I am so, so sorry you're going through this. I don't know how you've even dealt with this for so long. The longest I've gone "without" is about 6 months, and that was because I was physically and systematically denied any opportunity with either gender. I would not survive years. So I congratulate your on your steadfastness to your principles. But please, do not allow your W to appease you with breadcrumbs this time. "July" is bull**** and I'm angry for you

I dont buy it. Start digging, she’s got something coming up in July that she couldn’t get done before then.

I explicitly wrote not to jump into bed with a random hook-up. While I could be wrong, I don't believe Rivers is that type of person. It is painfully obvious that sex is important to Rivers and if his wife is unwilling, but otherwise able, to have sex with him for whatever reason that in my opinion is grounds for him to file divorce. I may have posted this before in another thread. But I view sex like bathrooms when considering a house to purchase and live in. Obviously, no one would buy a home simply because the bathrooms were incredible (i.e. the sex is great) but on the other hand, no one would buy a house that didn't have a bathroom. So, Rivers has been living in a house without a bathroom for 2.5 years. Oh! but it seems his WW has had easy access to a bathroom(s) during this time.

What I did write about is trying to have a hard conversation with his WW to see what her true feelings are in how she views Rivers as a man and a partner. It is without doubt, based on her actions, that she has lost some respect for Rivers as a man and partner. While she may value Rivers in some ways- being a father and raising their daughters, taking care of the house and homefront. It may be his WW views him as a piece of furniture in the house, or at best, her support staff. An unpaid assistant, butler, cook, valet, housekeeper and chauffeur for their girls. Why would she want to give this up? Along with the asset split and accompanying child support and spousal support for however many of years? She had no motivation to change the status quo.

I seriously suspect that his WW, being comfortable with the arrangement the past several years, is angling to get back to her one-sided open marriage that she was living in. She can get her sexual needs met with her APs while Rivers plays the dutiful, faithful, ignored and unloved SAHD. She obviously can't outright tell Rivers this; so, she's going to continue stringing Rivers along- 'we can work on this in July' or 'I just need to get to a place where I feel safe.' Hoping and praying that Rivers will eventually succumb and give up in his efforts with her. To be honest, it seemed to be working for his WW. Heck, it's worked for 2.5 years and Rivers played along right into her plans. She manipulated Rivers perfectly.

Until he filed for divorce.

Then and only then did Rivers see a modicum of change in his WW. But she's still stringing him along on the physical aspect of their relationship. Probably because she no longer considers Rivers as her romantic partner. He's the help, the support staff in her eyes- simply unworthy. Sorry if this is too harsh Rivers but you can't deny that is how you've been treated the past 2 and a half years, right? But again, she can't outright admit this at this time.

So again, how do you get a cheater and addict to answer honestly? They've both been in IC and MC all these years- with no change. So, telling him "all you and her need is therapy" which some here bandy about as an automatic fix-it-all isn't going to help Rivers. That is why I proposed having the conversation with his WW as to how to proceed. Ask her if she wants an open marriage but she'll have to agree that it will no longer be only a one-sided open marriage. Propose whatever rules you want just so she knows you've seriously given this some thought. Tell her your needs must be met as well as hers. Study her reaction closely. As I wrote, if she jumps at this chance and agrees, you have your answer and fast-track the divorce. If she balks at the suggestion and refuses, ya'll may have a chance. But she needs to see you're willing to actively take steps to change the status quo and you refuse to continue to live an enforced life of celibacy.

Simply proposing (but not acting on) an open marriage to a previously unfaithful spouse is not in itself cheating or infidelity. [Now, if one spouse proposed an open marriage in a previously agreed to monogamous marriage it is grounds for filing for divorce] Some may say that such a proposal would be manipulating or playing games with your WW. No, it is a way to get to his WW's true feelings in as quick a manner as possible. It's been 2 and a half years, over a 1000 days in limbo, Rivers has suffered enough. He needs to bring this to a head or just detach, institute a hard 180 and divorce.

Some may say that such a proposal would be manipulating or playing games with your WW. No, it is a way to get to his WW's true feelings in as quick a manner as possible

It would certainly work, but you have to admit that it's at least kind of dishonest. If he's not actually interested in non-monogamy, he may not be comfortable pretending he is just to get to the bottom of this, even after all that's happened. Like others have said, some people have honesty as a principle, and to do something like that would be a violation of it and a betrayal to themselves.

Plus, on the off chance that his W is actually coming back around... What if the non-monogamy proposal puts her off again? That's certainly a possible outcome.

First, it's been a couple weeks, have an update RiverswithFishes?

Second:

Like others have said, some people have honesty as a principle, and to do something like that would be a violation of it and a betrayal to themselves.

Gently and sincerely, GotTheMorbs (and others that have posted similar thoughts) I know a little bit of your story but right off-hand I cannot recall if you confessed or if you were caught by your BH and I do respect that you are attempting to help Rivers here... but Rivers, in my opinion, is currently in a situation analogous to a spouse that comes to us posting in the Just Found Out forum. A spouse that writes "my gut tells me that my spouse is cheating because he/she yada yada yada" or "while I have no proof, I have my suspicions based on X, Y and Z"

What do we always tell those spouses that come to us posting what their thoughts are? TRUST YOUR GUT.

And then we tell them all the ways to GET TO THE TRUTH!! Right??

How do we tell them to get to the truth? Do we tell them 'just ask your spouse if they are cheating on you and believe their answer without any doubt" ?!?!? No, we tell them don't confront yet you need to hide a VAR in vehicles or places in the house; you need to steal cell phone passwords to get into the suspected spouses cell phone. Have you tried hacking into their computer to obtain emails? Can you hire a PI to follow your spouse around? Can you tell your spouse you're going away out of town for the weekend, so you can then back track, and spy on your spouse? And on and on...

None of these actions are what I would call living a principled, honest life with your spouse.

Yet all of these actions I whole-heartedly agree with because it is the truth that matters. None of these actions would be a betrayal to themself even if they were simply based on a gut feeling.

So bluffing a wayward spouse that has had multiple affairs, creates hidden bank accounts to divert assets, has hired a "Divorce Consultant' and denies any intimacy for over 2 years, with a 2-sided open marriage proposal to get to their true feelings is in no way dishonest.

BEGIN SARCASM/ But I guess Rivers should resume the fetal position that he was previously in before taking hard action? Because oh no! his wife may be put off? It requires some subtle subterfuge on his part? He might as well just go ahead and label himself a Mad-Hatter? /END SARCASM

Come on. Rivers you need to get to the truth... I think everyone here knows what that truth is and I think you do too, but hopium is a powerful drug. You are as addicted to hopium as your wife is/was to the alcohol and the validation (throw in a bit of co-dependency on your side as well) I hope you decide to end your addiction. Good luck.

So bluffing... is in no way dishonest.

Actually, bluffing is dishonest. The entire purpose is deception.

A betrayed spouse offering R has to set the standard. One cannot demand honesty, openness and vulnerability without demanding the same of themselves.

I think that's a little hyperbolic, NZ. As for the other investigative methods you listed: no, I don't think those are dishonest practices/methods, truthfully (Well, other than "Can you tell your spouse you're going away out of town for the weekend, so you can then back track, and spy on your spouse?" -- that one's a lie.) The others are just means of observing reality, rather than presenting something that isn't entirely true (however mild in nature.) Like I'm certainly not going to be the one to lecture anyone on honesty, by any means; I'm just explaining the other side's argument here.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 1:24 AM, Tuesday, June 9th]

A betrayed spouse offering R has to set the standard. One cannot demand honesty, openness and vulnerability without demanding the same of themselves.

I agree in an open, honest, and transparent R attempt... but can anyone here really say that Rivers' WW is attempting such a Reconciliation? Even in the best scenarios where the wayward is on their knees, crying and sobbing, begging for R, we all know and warn about Fake R attempts. We warn about the affair going underground and never really stopping. We all warn about monitoring and verifying a wayward's actions and intentions during R, don't we? Even years later Betrayeds feel the urge to snoop because you can never truly trust a W 100% after an affair.

Would anyone here accuse a BS of being dishonest, distrusting or closed off (not open) for checking the wayward's phone/computer/emails (without the W's knowledge) during an even 100% true Reconciliation attempt between a couple?

Seriously???

In cases such as this, Rivers would have to be incredibly lucky (and his W incredibly stupid) to uncover where his W put down in writing (so Rivers can discover) that she can't see herself having sex with Rivers. Whereas a simple and hopefully honest (on his W's part) conversation with a proposal may show Rivers his W's true intentions. It is quite common for a betrayed to ask a wayward if they want an open marriage. Usually this happens in the dizzying moments right after D-Day, during or soon after confrontation. Here, it's just 2 and half years later. Like I wrote, I hope she says she doesn't want an open marriage.

We're straying from the thread... Rivers please update when ready. Also, you wrote she said she'd work on the physical part "in July" Is there anything significant happening in July? You also wrote your youngest is going into high school next school year, so she's 14-15? Is her birthday in July or soon thereafter? On your youngest daughter's birthday will she become eligible to drive in your state? Does your wife plan to purchase cars for both daughters? If so, their independence will greatly expand and your role as chief transport officer for your daughters will be reduced, if not ended. Your WW may be just trying to string you along until your daughters gain enough independence that she can start a divorce without the headache of managing the kids from day to day. Or come July, your WW will kick the can down the road ("I'm still not 100% feeling safe, how about the holidays? Rinse and repeat come the holidays) until both daughters graduate high school.