SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Haha, fair enough. It's not like I want her to be unique or the same or anything. Just trying to come to terms with what happened to her. Thanks for the encouragement and dialogue.

WS was sexting AP1 a month after I moved across the world to her home country to build a better life for our kids (only found out after I found out about AP2).

Took WS to every single appointment and waited through the duration of each for her breast cancer treatment including daily radiation for weeks. 6 months later she was fucking AP2.

This shit really does happen. Use as an opportunity to show yourself how really damn strong you are. WS is weak as.

Just trying to come to terms with what happened to her.

No stones to throw here, friend. This is hard as all fuck, it will mess with your mind. I benefitted tremendously from the knowledge and wisdom of this community as I navigated my wife’s betrayal.
Don’t take this the wrong way, but you are likely fortunate that she is pushing divorce. A betrayed spouse (BS) is deeply psychologically wounded and in desperate need of personal healing. But most of us set that aside and try to fix the marriage first. It’s a huge mistake that almost all of us make. You have the opportunity to focus on your own recovery. I can’t recommend strongly enough that you do not try to pursue her. If she wants to go, let her go. And if she changes her mind and says she wants the marriage, treat that with extreme skepticism. But no matter what happens, your own personal healing from this egregious wound needs to be your top top priority.

I think you would be better served if you spent less time trying to figure out "what happened to her" and more time trying to figure out what drew you to this woman in the first place and what made you tolerate such flagrant humiliation and disrespect.

If it helps, here's some clarity: The only difference between the beginning of your relationship and now is that she's blown the lid off her dumpster fire and is letting the flames blaze freely. If you had been paying attention, you would've smelled that smoke from the start and run the opposite direction.

Perhaps you thought you could be the one to put it out and "save" her. Perhaps there's something interesting and exciting about her dysfunction. Perhaps you feel validated by being "needed" and being the responsible person in the relationship. Perhaps you wanted so badly to believe in the image that she projected of herself that you ignored all evidence to the contrary.

These are all questions that you will need to explore in therapy. While I try to avoid making presumptions about people based on a few anonymous posts, everything you've written indicates that you have a Knight in Shining Armour (KISA) complex. If your sincere hope is to one day have a relationship that's stable, and based on love and mutual respect, then you're going to have to get over this.

As far as a recommendation for where to start, I've heard good things from men on this board about "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Robert Glover.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:55 PM, Thursday, December 4th]

Someone with a strict moral codes based in absolutes yet is fluid based on audience is frankly a pretty big red flag for someone on the narcisssism spectrum.

You asked above why I’m still here. I was cheated on decades ago in a situation not even close to what people have gone through. It’s always bugged me and my mind still hasn’t found an answer to ‘why’. I’m not dealing with trauma or residual feelings. I got through it, remember it, it it’s just a data point now. A long time ago my friend was cheated on the worst way possible (kid not his) and I came here looking for support in supporting him. I’ve stuck around because it feels good helping people and you’ll not find a better group of people. Even in real life non-infidelity related I’ll sometimes think to myself ‘how would Bigger respond’.

I do think you'd be better served dropping the attitude of being willing to reconcile no matter what. I get it, I know you want to save your marriage, but holding to that and conveying it to her puts all the power in her hands. If she knows you're willing to put up with anything and still reconcile she has no reason or incentive to change anything. She knows no matter what she does right now, you'll tolerate it and take it. That's not a good position to be in.

Sharkman wrote:

I’ll sometimes think to myself ‘how would Bigger respond’.

That's so funny because I was tempted to plagiarize Bigger right now. He has a great template for what to say to a WS about consequences in situations like OP's, but I'll give him some time and see if he stumbles across this thread on his own.

That's the idea tho, is to get out of infidelity ASAP. There are generally 2 paths to get there. D or R. One path you only need one party for (D). The other requires both parties to work (R). You can't make a spouse agree to the terms of R, but you can lay it out, let your spouse know you'll no longer tolerate infidelity, and what to expect if it continues.

"Then go make a ham sandwich and watch a rerun of friends."

[This message edited by Pogre at 7:45 PM, Thursday, December 4th]

If she knows you're willing to put up with anything and still reconcile she has no reason or incentive to change anything. She knows no matter what she does right now, you'll tolerate it and take it. That's not a good position to be in.

I have definitely conveyed that to some degree, and didn't even need to because she knows of my conviction and my loyalty by the way I conducted myself.

You can't make a spouse agree to the terms of R, but you can lay it out, let your spouse know you'll no longer tolerate infidelity, and what to expect if it continues.

In a brief, tentatively cracked window moment she was not completely ruling it out, I did tell her it would require her to address her issues in therapy. I may be dumb, but I'm not stupid. It's not "reconcile at all costs" because I would not feel safe enough to reconcile unless I knew she was 100% committed to it. She's not. Never will be.

I am still not willing to be the one who files and finishes it off. If she violates the tentative trust we have (she isn't meeting with anyone now, essentially under house arrest because I won't let her have anyone over and won't let her leave her kids with me or any other caretaker without approval), that will be a trigger for me to go ahead and file. She's keeping her nose clean because she doesn't want to be out on the street with two kids; she's trying to bide her time and work on things like getting the house ready to sell (she wants her share of that sweet, sweet equity). I'm under no delusions that she isn't still chatting with men in her various apps and I'm not interested in checking that out.

I'm not going to debase myself further than I already have. I've begun the 180 for my own sanity and boundary construction. Again, I'm under no delusions about getting her to change her mind since she's one of the people on the planet that seems least likely to change her mind after I refuse to validate her new liberation from me, and among the likeliest to be relieved that she doesn't have to feel guilty about the way it hurts me.

I guess my biggest question is still how I get past these stupid intrusive thoughts (about our once shared world and her being with other, somehow more preferable men) and my distrust of women. I know time will help but it's going to be such an uphill battle.

[This message edited by WorthLessThanCounterfeit at 8:02 PM, Thursday, December 4th]

I may be dumb, but I'm not stupid.

You don't strike me as dumb at all. Just someone who loves and trusted his wife and got burned. It's not dumb to trust your spouse. You're supposed to be able to.

I'm not going to debase myself further than I already have. I've begun the 180 for my own sanity and boundary construction. Again, I'm under no delusions about getting her to change her mind since she's one of the people on the planet that seems least likely to change her mind after I refuse to validate her new liberation from me, and among the likeliest to be relieved that she doesn't have to feel guilty about the way it hurts me.

Good. I'm glad you looked into the 180 and that you understand what its purpose is. It might not feel like it, but based on your last post it looks to me like you're beginning to get your feet back under you. This stuff is really hard, so give yourself some grace and don't beat yourself up if you stumble a little. Just stay strong and try to stick to your guns.

I guess my biggest question is still how I get past these stupid intrusive thoughts (about our once shared world and her being with other, somehow more preferable men) and my distrust of women. I know time will help but it's going to be such an uphill battle.

There's no shortcut or easy path to deal with those intrusive thoughts, mental images, and mind movies. What you're dealing with are symptoms that line right up with PTSD. There's even a colloquial acronym for it - PISD (Post Infidelity Stress Disorder), and it's real. Make no mistake, infidelity is very traumatizing. There are going to be triggers. Most people greatly underestimate the impact betrayal trauma like this has on a person. I was one of them until it was thrust upon me. I'd always thought about it as something that would certainly suck, but something people just "get over" and move on from. Boy, was I wrong.

This is where some individual counseling, preferably with someone trained to deal with trauma could help if available to you. In the meantime, make sure you look after yourself. Eat, stay hydrated, and try to get enough sleep. Drink some protein shakes if your appetite isn't there, and talk to your Dr about some temporary meds to help you with sleep if necessary. Get out and exercise, even if it's just taking a nice long walk. Keep posting here and use us to vent to about anything. Pretty much everyone here understands what you're going through, and it's a safe space to let it out. It helped me a lot just typing it out and talking about it with others who can empathize.

I am still not willing to be the one who files and finishes it off

Your wife "finished off" the M by her evil choices. Filing for D is merely following through on the legal front what is already reality.

I encourage you to think this through. So if she continues to rub your face by glibly describing her next date, stays out all night, etc. etc., will you grin & bear it? Indefinitely? If you have kids, is this what you want to model marriage as? Kids are deeply influenced by what they see. If nothing else, consider how much you’re setting them up for failure in their future relationships.

I guess my biggest question is still how I get past these stupid intrusive thoughts

With her around, indefinitely, and utterly unremorsefully, you’re going to be triggered continuously. If you won’t file, no matter what, I can only suggest deep IC and work on how you can better tolerate such epic disrespect.

I hear that you feel strongly about this, but your framing doesn't fully fit my lived reality. I'm not confused about what's happened--I simply have reasons for not filing first that are tied to my personal boundaries, not denial or weakness. I'm not avoiding reality, I'm choosing the timing and manner that aligns with my values and what I believe is healthiest for me and the kids.

Filing is not about whether the marriage is "already over," it's about how I steward myself through the process.

And as for the intrusive thoughts, I'm already straining toward the internal work needed to manage triggers and establish boundaries. I barely see her and over the last few days I've been really acing the whole 180 thing lately. Thanks to the people on this thread.

I don't intend to stay in a situation that's harmful, but I also won't let urgency or pressure from others dictate my decisions. I'm taking steps, just deliberately.

I'm gr8ful for your contribution. I'm sure it comes from justifiable indignation, probably your own experiences.

[This message edited by WorthLessThanCounterfeit at 3:54 AM, Saturday, December 6th]

I hear that you feel strongly about this, but your framing doesn't fully fit my lived reality.

It’s 100% your life and, kind of silly to state it but I will: it’s exclusively your choice what to do with it. I hope you don’t feel any "pressure" from an anonymous poster on the net. Just trying to offer suggestions to consider, with the goal of minimizing your pain.

Ironically, there have been cases where the betrayed files for D, which finally snaps their adulterous spouse back to reality, and moved them to true remorse, leading to a successful R. It’s not a tactic, but there’s some truth in the saying, "You must be willing to lose your M in order to save it".

May God grant you wisdom.

"what happened to her"

I think all of us betrayed would like to believe that "something happened" to our wayward partners.

Maybe a brain tumor, or date rape drugs, or hypnosis by an evil genius, or an alien ray gun.

But none of that is what happened with your WW. Whatever was going on in her brain, she knew what she was doing was wrong. All of the many, many decisions she made, all of the extensive planning, choosing her "slutty" outfits, the trip, Tinder, meeting these men, going with them, taking her clothes off, all the rest.

She did all of that, and she knew all of it was wrong; terribly, terribly wrong.

Why did she do it? Well, you’ll see many reasons posited. Maybe she was looking for validation that she was still desirable. Maybe she was bored, and looking for excitement. Maybe she’s had it with you, and is looking for your replacement. Maybe she’s was looking for more sex, better sex, different sex, a bigger dick, a smaller dick, who knows.

A lot of these reasons, you might convince yourself she’s gotten her answers, gotten it out of her system

The tough one is, is she done with you?

Maybe you’ll stay together, for the kids, for religion, for economics, whatever.

But wondering if she is done with you is tough to get past.

Best wishes.

But wondering if she is done with you is tough to get past.

I don't want to admit it, but you're right on. It's the thing in the back of my mind in all my many mental exercises and attempts at moving on and healing. Until she's in an actual committed relationship - maybe as far down the path as remarriage - I will wonder. Thank you for exposing that compassionately.

It sucks that she has done this to you. It's tough, I know.

I wonder if you are making the same mistake that I made. I thought I knew my WW better than she knew herself. I thought I knew why she had cheated, why it could not have been as bad as it seemed and that she would sooner or later see the error of her ways and become truly remorseful.

The result was that I was a prime target for lies and gas-lighting. Hell, I practically gaslit myself. The result was that I carried the guilt and shame of all the for decades and I never got the full truth until decades later - and maybe not then.

Maybe you knew her once upon a time, but you have no idea about this person she has become. And you probably never will unless she realizes that she is screwed up and gets professional help figuring out why she became a cold hearted, liar and cheat.

She has no reason to even consider that as long as she's being allowed to have her cake and eat it too. I think you need to do a hard 180 and let her know that this whole mess is going to be coming to an end in the very near future.

It wasn't until I started a 180 that my WW started to defog. My problem was that because I thought I knew all the answers, I never insisted on the real truth and rug swept the whole thing. I'm back here twenty years later dealing with that. Don't do that.

Wishing you the best.

Nothing "happened" to her. Not to belabor the point, but she was always unstable, irresponsible, and manipulative. You just were besotted by her and chose to believe the image she projected of herself and not the evidence of who she was. I also get the impression that you have a bad case of KISA (Knight in Shining Armour) syndrome. You see yourself as someone who can save a damsel from herself. You can't.

I get that your hesitancy to file is mainly because there are children involved, but they are not yours and you haven't legally adopted them, correct? I know you love them and I admire you for being a devoted stepfather to them, but the reality is that she could pack up tomorrow and cut you out of their lives and there is absolutely nothing you could do about it.

So I'm going to ask again: Where is their father? If he's still involved in their lives, is a decent man (ie, not a criminal), and has visitation/shared custody, then he needs to be made aware of what's going on in his children's lives. If the mother of your kids were shirking her responsibilities, wouldn't you want to know? Maybe they would be better off living with him, if that's an option.

Also, if you think you're doing the kids any favors by picking up the parenting slack for her, you're wrong. All you're doing is enabling her bad behavior. In your position, I would tell her: "I'm going to stay at a hotel this week (or I have plans for the weekend). If you have dates or any late nights planned, you'll need to stay home and get a babysitter." Again, if she wants to live like a single woman while she's married to you, then she needs to assume the burdens of a single woman-- not enjoy all the perks of being married (ie, using you as a babysitting service) while she fucks around.

I know you don't want to screw those kids up and make them feel as if you're abandoning them but the reality is that their mother is only married to you on paper. As soon as she finds another guy who wants to be her KISA and is willing to play house with her, you will be out of the picture.

I guess my biggest question is still how I get past these stupid intrusive thoughts (about our once shared world and her being with other, somehow more preferable men) and my distrust of women. I know time will help but it's going to be such an uphill battle.

The first part is easy. Once you're no longer living with her and are divorced, the intrusive thoughts will eventually fade because you're no longer being subjected to a daily dose of manipulation and humiliation. With time and distance, you will see her for the trainwreck she is. Rather than thinking that other men might be better than you, you will pity the next poor bastard that gets reeled into her spider's web.

As for distrusting women, that will be less of an issue once you focus on your own healing and self awareness and learn to trust yourself again. As you said, you've married two women that have cheated on you. That's not a statement on your value as a man but in your ability to judge a person's character.

After my divorce, I focused much less on what people said about themselves and much more about how they behaved. And most importantly at all, I stopped making excuses for other people completely. I took relationships slow and, at the nearest sign that something was "off", I took off.

My husband now isn't perfection by any means, but over the 2-year span that we dated before marriage there was never a point where his words and his actions weren't aligned. He almost never talked about his Christian values (as my ex frequently did)... but he lived them in his every day words and his interactions. And our romance was not fireworks and explosions (as it was with my ex and, I suspect, as it was with you and your wife) but a slow fire that has built into an enduring flame.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:39 PM, Monday, December 8th]

I understand feeling eviscerated. It will take a while to realize you're still whole, but it WILL happen. The fact that you're dealing with this while you're also dealing with being separated from your old job makes your life just an order of magnitude or 2 much more difficult.

Both being laid off and being betrayed by one's partner are massive blows to one's self esteem. But I've been part of layoff decisions, and I can tell you that ability and contribution play small parts in the decisions on whom to lay off. And I've been betrayed by my partner, and I know my W cheated because of her issues with herself, not with me or our M.

IOW, in all probability, your company made its decisions because of its own felt needs, just as your W is off the rails because of hers.

One way to deal with the blows to self-esteem is to work with a good therapist. You've made therapy for your W a requirement for R. My reco is to treat yourself better than you treat your W: if finances limit therapy, you go first. You'll be amazed how much better life is if you process some of your grief, fear, shame, and anger out of your body, and that's where good therapy can help. Processing pain out of your body will also help you on the job front.

If you're not convinced therapy for yourself is in order, Emotional Freedom Technique's tapping may give you relief. Search the web on 'eft tapping' (without quotes).

I know rebuilding self-esteem is much easier said than done, but it IS doable. The 180 is a step in the right direction.

You are real, and you're worth as much as every other human being.

Nothing "happened" to her. Not to belabor the point, but she was always unstable, irresponsible, and manipulative. You just were besotted by her and chose to believe the image she projected of herself and not the evidence of who she was.

I've been coming to terms with this in pieces. I think after reading this today I reflected and for the first time truly entertained the idea that she's a just net bad person whom I nonetheless fell into love with. I'm sure you know I can't just turn off that affection for aspects of her and the dreams about the life I wanted with her. And I think even the worst of us has some part of the original child, the image of God, within us for which we would benefit from being appreciated and loved. Net bad or not, she's got a lot of that, and I don't think I'm the only one to see it.

I also get the impression that you have a bad case of KISA (Knight in Shining Armour) syndrome. You see yourself as someone who can save a damsel from herself. You can't.

After that was first mentioned in this thread I looked into that and can confirm, yes. I definitely thought I could be a part of her healing because the things she seemed most traumatized by in her past were things that weren't among my problems, and I had great sympathy for her about. That doesn't correlate to "saving" her as it turns out, but when she jumped into my arms I'm sure I thought, "Ok, I will get her to safety." It's not that I thought I was a perfect knight, but I did feel like I was perfect for her.

So I'm going to ask again: Where is their father? If he's still involved in their lives, is a decent man (ie, not a criminal), and has visitation/shared custody, then he needs to be made aware of what's going on in his children's lives. If the mother of your kids were shirking her responsibilities, wouldn't you want to know? Maybe they would be better off living with him, if that's an option.

He's aware. He's kind of a jerk and somewhat narcissistic, so he's interested in getting involved in order to win the game. Still, I do think the boy would be better off with him for now regardless. It's neither my circus nor my monkeys, though.

Again, if she wants to live like a single woman while she's married to you, then she needs to assume the burdens of a single woman-- not enjoy all the perks of being married (ie, using you as a babysitting service) while she fucks around.

I'm not sure where I gave the impression that I was covering for her other than to make sure they aren't out on the street. That's what it would look like to them. Yes, things could get bad enough that I would risk it, but my overnight tears and moans and groans about not being loved anymore aren't enough to justify it. For now, by staying there she's basically put herself under house arrest because her condition for living there includes not having anyone over without my approval (including babysitters) and me not babysitting the kids either. She's stuck in the house unless she takes the kids, and she's not (yet) sufficiently psycho that she'd take them out at night. I've got a security system that I'm monitoring now and she knows it, so there's no more chance for more midnight escapades either. That stuff seems handled.

I know you don't want to screw those kids up and make them feel as if you're abandoning them but the reality is that their mother is only married to you on paper. As soon as she finds another guy who wants to be her KISA and is willing to play house with her, you will be out of the picture.

Agreed. But in showing basic affection for them they will know that I never had anything but their best interests at heart, and I will maintain my own integrity before God.

Divorce is not who I am. Again, not to say that I couldn't be forced into that, but I'm just not there yet. It's not because I hope to get her back or anything--it's just a line I've drawn. Please don't argue with me, but I believe God joined us together in the sacrament of marriage, and for now I'm holding the line on not being a part of putting us asunder legally or otherwise.

Rather than thinking that other men might be better than you, you will pity the next poor bastard that gets reeled into her spider's web.

Yeah, I can already see that.

As for distrusting women, that will be less of an issue once you focus on your own healing and self awareness and learn to trust yourself again. As you said, you've married two women that have cheated on you. That's not a statement on your value as a man but in your ability to judge a person's character.

Yeah. I do realize that a lot of it is more about trusting myself than women. Distrusting doesn't mean that I think they're all bad...it just means I don't trust my intuition enough anymore to discern the difference. I do believe that, unlike this last relationship, slow and steady will be required to win any future race.

Thanks for your candor.

sisoon,

But I've been part of layoff decisions, and I can tell you that ability and contribution play small parts in the decisions on whom to lay off. And I've been betrayed by my partner, and I know my W cheated because of her issues with herself, not with me or our M.

Interesting parallel. I don't blame my company for the layoffs, nor am I bitter. But you're right that my W is both the proximate and ultimate cause of all this, because whatever issues the M had, I was there for it and would have kept working on it.

If you're not convinced therapy for yourself is in order, Emotional Freedom Technique's tapping may give you relief. Search the web on 'eft tapping' (without quotes).

I'm talking to a therapist. I've heard of EFT tapping and I should probably look into it. Thanks.

You are real, and you're worth as much as every other human being.

Thank you. None of these words of affirmation in this thread are lost on me.

Divorce is not who I am. Again, not to say that I couldn't be forced into that, but I'm just not there yet. It's not because I hope to get her back or anything--it's just a line I've drawn. Please don't argue with me, but I believe God joined us together in the sacrament of marriage, and for now I'm holding the line on not being a part of putting us asunder legally or otherwise.

I get that and I'm not trying to push you to do something you don't want to do. But your wife has said that divorce is what she wants. If she hasn't filed yet, it's only because she's waiting for a time that is to her best advantage. At the very least, you should consult with a lawyer so that you can prepare yourself for what's to come.

For now, by staying there she's basically put herself under house arrest because her condition for living there includes not having anyone over without my approval (including babysitters) and me not babysitting the kids either. She's stuck in the house unless she takes the kids, and she's not (yet) sufficiently psycho that she'd take them out at night. I've got a security system that I'm monitoring now and she knows it, so there's no more chance for more midnight escapades either. That stuff seems handled.

You shouldn't have to treat your wife like she's a truant teenager who needs to be grounded and put on "house arrest." In fact, these are the sort of conditions where I can see her making up a claim of domestic violence in order to get you kicked out of the house, which you will still have to pay for, even if you're no longer allowed to enter it. At the very least, she will paint you as villain who is abusive and controlling because you won't let her leave without escort. And if you think that's really preposterous and that I watch too much TV, stick around here long enough and you'll see plenty of examples of women who do exactly that.

And if you think she's not psycho enough to take her kids with her on a hook-up, let me remind you that this is a woman who brought men into your home for sex while you were asleep in it! If that's not psycho, I don't know what your definition of psycho is.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 6:16 PM, Monday, December 8th]