SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You appear to think that not divorcing is R. Am I reading your posts right?

I find it difficult to distinguish between staying together and reconciliation. Reconciliation is really quite nebulous. It means different things to different people. Feel free to nail down exactly what this means to you. Is counseling always required for it to be considered reconciliation? What if a wayward partner feels sorry and genuinely tries to never cheat again but doesn't seek therapy? Are we only considering a very specific subset of actions that accounts for reconciliation?

My personal definition of R would be staying together with the aim of never letting cheating happen again by any means necessary. Sometimes that would involve counseling and open phone policies, while other times it might involve forgiving a one-off occasion.

Whereas staying together could be living a sham marriage. It could be never addressing the affair at all. Allowing the cheating to go on as long as it's out of view. etc.

Your posts seem to be based on the theory that BSes have little autonomy and are doomed to black holes of despair.

I believe everyone has some level of autonomy, and this differs from circumstance to circumstance. How much autonomy someone has in an abusive relationship is up for debate. The amount of autonomy one has in a marriage can also be heavily influenced by cultural norms and societal expectations. Does a married woman in the UAE have the same autonomy of a married woman in the UK? I'd argue no. That said, I don’t think everyone is doomed to black holes of despair. I don't feel I've ever said anything in line with this. I'm happy now. As are many others. Feel free to quote me back points like this.

Your tag line implies one can never fully recover. Do I read that right?

I'm not sure trauma can ever be erased—only managed to varying degrees. I believe you can recover in the sense you can recover from cancer. It's not actively killing you but you can see the lasting impact in your dig deep enough.

It looks like DRS can't imagine choosing R from strength.

I can indeed imagine choosing R from strength. I can envision thinking to myself, "I'm going to keep this family together for the good of my kids because they don't deserve to have their chances in life affected by my selfish partner."

That said, I do struggle to imagine another scenario where this would be considered a strength. However, this doesn’t mean you don't need strength to do it. It also doesn't mean that reconciliation can never be the right path for your own happiness. I agree it's a type of strength to have sex with someone who's betrayed you. Its a type of strength to sleep soundly by their side a night. Strength I don't envy but strength never the less.

I’d say, ‘Data, please’ if that wasn’t followed by 'may reoffend.' If you mean 'will reoffend,' show us data about WSes who actively participated in building a new relationship with their BSes. 'May reoffend' is so fuzzy it’s pretty much just an amorphous fear.

I echo your sentiment about fuzzy points when you say "actively participated in building a new relationship." Does this imply that all reoffenders weren’t doing this? It seems like a self-cleaning statistic—only those who don’t reconcile properly, according to a specific, yet-to-be-defined parameter, are labeled as reoffenders.

I reference a peer reviewed statistic regarding reoffending but I suppose it would be impossible to provide a statistic given your requirements.

Statistics don't apply to real life cases. My W will either cheat again or she won't. That's 100% or 0%, not 23.4% (or whatever the actual probability may be). Statistics are useful sometimes. But they're not very useful in predicting what a specific BS will experience in their specific situation.

This is true of every statistic. When you go into surgery, and a doctor provides you with a statistical chance of recovery, that information will consider various relational factors such as age, gender, and weight.

So, if you were listening to a doctor pre-surgery delivering this information, would you disregard these statistics? You might think, "They aren't about me specifically." After all, these statistics can't account for my unique health factors, like my immune system. Ultimately, I will either recover or I won't.

Stats are a useful measure of how likely someone is to reoffend generally. I personally do not think cheaters are all as unique as you might think. Read enough off these cases and you see trends. They say the same things, for the same reasons. Quite the coincidence given we are all so individual. Why do you think so many cases are so similar given your reasoning?

While I agree it is difficult to maintain objective, logical thinking without emotions being contributing factors, I think it’s wise to aim for that approach, especially in circumstances where you could be manipulated by an abuser.

My previous statement remains unchanged. You can manipulate emotions, but you can't manipulate facts.

But M is a lot more than just fidelity. I get the idea that people who argue for D as the default do so because fidelity in itself towers above everything else, and infidelity wipes out all previous love and support.

That makes fidelity into the only real factor they care about. Making D the default throws the rest of the M …um… out with the bath water. At least that’s how I understand the D-is-default position.

Having a minimum requirement for what is acceptable in a relationship is not the same as being the only real factor someone cares about. Speaking personally, if you can't maintain fidelity, the conversation about the relationship ceases. That’s not to say a partner could be loyal and still not be meant for you due to various other factors. Similarly, just because they are loyal doesn’t mean they are a good partner. It's simply the minimum requirement for marriage.

But fidelity isn’t the only minimum requirement. For example, I would say not actively being a criminal could be one, as could not showing signs of overt sadism or having illegal sexual interests.

I think it would be equally rational to divorce on these grounds as well. Theoretically, you could make the same argument about any minimum requirement: "Yes, they beat your neighbor to death, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater—it was a one-time mistake. The love was real. Remember how you laughed?"

Please note, I'm not equating infidelity to murder; I'm using the implied logic in the argument against itself to illustrate how it’s a fairly meaningless statement.

what you said feels more accurate and far closer to a full picture to me than looking at all post-cheating sex as abusive, demeaning, or rooted in cuckold/degradation fetish

My only point on this was that hysterical bounding can be dangerous and counter-productive. I want to see the opportunities for abusive waywards ability to manipulate their partner minimized. I'll admit I'm not experienced on the topic of hysterical bounding and was speculating on the psychological impacts and rational.

Lets have a little sympathy here. I understand the push for autonomy and ultimately the BS can do what they want but can we please just try to remember what that betrayal felt like. Imagine someone who has been cheated on for years by someone they thought they'd spend their life with. The mother of their children. They are broken. Self esteem at an all time low. Question the nature of their entire relationship. Questioning their sexual ability and manhood. Now whilst they need time to reflect on what's right for them, someone is repeatedly throwing sex at them.

They are already emotionally all over the place, it's the last thing they need to heal. They may well not be thinking clearly and have the strength to turn this down.

Sex bounds people. Its can be used as a desperate attempt to keep the betrayed around. How difficult would it be from this mental state of low self worth and belief to say to ones self - I deserve more than this? Turn down the sex and move on. This is why I'm harping on about it. This is my fear.

I agree with HikingOut when she said it's likely a primal response but that doesn't downplay the worrying psychological factors at play. It's entirely reasonable to then associate betrayal with intense emotional sex. Does that seem healthy generally to anyone?

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 3:19 PM, Tuesday, April 15th]

I find it difficult to distinguish between staying together and reconciliation. Reconciliation is really quite nebulous. It means different things to different people. Feel free to nail down exactly what this means to you. Is counseling always required for it to be considered reconciliation? What if a wayward partner feels sorry and genuinely tries to never cheat again but doesn't seek therapy? Are we only considering a very specific subset of actions that accounts for reconciliation?

My personal definition would be staying together with the aim of never letting cheating happen again by any means necessary. Sometimes that would involve counseling and open phone policies, while other times it might involve forgiving a one-off occasion.

Reconciliation to me is n outcome in which:

The ws has done a lot of work on themselves to the point the change is undeniable. There are lots of factors that go into cheating. They have spent time identifying and working on each one. This results in a higher self awareness, and often more emotional maturity and ability to self soothe.

They have been open and answered all the questions truthfully. They have made amends, continue to make amends by changed behavior. Trust has been intentionally rebuilt.

The bs has worked on their own healing.

Deep communication has occurred for a very long period of time, often years, to the place there is a firm understanding of one another.

And the terms of the marriage is often changed, but not always. What I notice about reconciliation stories the most, and it’s true for my marriage as well is that both parties feel a larger freedom in the relationship to exercise boundaries, create more win-wins instead of more sacrifice, and have abandoned any toxicity in the relationship. Communication is stronger, the purpose of remaining in the marriage is based on love and desire rather than obligation.

People who have reconciled intend to stay married and the presence of their marriage may not be based on the initial reasons for staying together such as kids. Yes, that still may be important but people who reconcile are still together because they want to be. They are happy in the marriage.

Staying out of obligation, and continuing to do so for years on end with no resolution and just stuffing their feelings about it is not reconciling.

I believe everyone has some level of autonomy, and this differs from circumstance to circumstance. How much autonomy someone has in an abusive relationship is up for debate. The amount of autonomy one has in a marriage can also be heavily influenced by cultural norms and societal expectations. Does a married woman in the UAE have the same autonomy of a married woman in the UK? I'd argue no. That said, I don’t think everyone is doomed to black holes of despair. I don't feel I've every said anything in line with this. Feel free to quote me back points like this.

Not all marriages that experience infidelity had been abusive up to that point. Yes, infidelity is abusive. Sometimes that period of time is spurred by life circumstances the ws could not deal with. And it’s a matter of building character and strength combined with new learned coping skills.

I will also point out that if the women I have talked to personally who cheated not a small percentage of them were actually abused by their Bs. I wouldn’t say the majority, but just because someone is a bs doesn’t make them a good person or spouse. It doesn’t give license to cheat, I am only saying your framing is almost 100 percent of the time that these bs have been in long term abusive relationships and are susceptible to manipulative behaviors.

I think there are bs’s who are in toxic relationships and may have been worn down by the abusive behaviors. But oftenwhat I see when we get new bs’s is they come from all different kinds of relationships, and many are mad enough about it they aren’t taking any shit. We get a gradient of those just like there are different gradient levels of ws.

I'm not sure trauma can ever be erased—only managed to varying degrees. I believe you can recover in the sense you can recover from cancer. It's not actively killing you but you can see the lasting impact in your dig deep enough.

I do not think trauma is ever erased either. I do think a lot of growth can come from Trauma, as well as strength. I would never advocate trauma to be a good thing, but I see bs’s who are living a life of peace and happiness in various marital outcomes. Healing is possible.

I can indeed imagine choosing R from strength. I can envision thinking to myself, "I'm going to keep this family together for the good of my kids because they don't deserve to have their chances in life affected by my selfish partner."

I think often this is a stance a new bs takes. Some will stay committed to that idea, and stay until the kids are raised. Others, as time goes in they slowly build back a marriage and the reasons they stay change.

That said, I do struggle to imagine another scenario where this would be considered a strength. However, this doesn’t mean you don't need strength to do it. It also doesn't mean that reconciliation can never be the right path for your own happiness. I agree it's a type of strength to have sex with someone who's betrayed you. Its a type of strength to sleep soundly by their side a night. Strength I don't envy but strength never the less.

Generally, I have noticed and this is not a rule, but often the couples who reconcile have a strong foundation built on more than sexual fidelity. They have been best friends, have had many happy years together.

We had a great 20 year marriage at the time of my affair. I see my own infidelity as completely my own failure not precipitated by my husband or my marriage. It happened in the throws of an existential crisis.

So my husband was faced with, well do I throw away this marriage that I have deeply enjoyed for 20 years and start again? There was no right answer that he saw himself happy with. Part of reconciliation is reconciling with yourself what you want. And in an ideal world, he hoped to continue to have a happy marriage. Why? Because the first stages of grief are bargaining and denial. Almost very bs will oscillate between those things while being pounded by deep emotions.

The process one goes through will evolve why they stay. In my book, I didn’t want us to stay married if he couldn’t a)be happy and b) love me again. I wanted us to be in the marriage because we want to be, no obligation. Part of my amends was signing over our real estate portfolio in the divorce papers. I was fully prepared to give him a very fair and amicable divorce.

All this to say, my husband showed no weakness in our process. He didn’t accept anything less than what would be agreeable to him at any point in our process. (

what you said feels more accurate and far closer to a full picture to me than looking at all post-cheating sex as abusive, demeaning, or rooted in cuckold/degradation fetish

My only point on this was that hysterical bounding can be dangerous and counter-productive. I want to see the opportunities for abusive waywards ability to manipulate their partner minimized. I'll admit I'm not experienced on the topic of hysterical bounding and was speculating on the psychological impacts and rational.

Again though, HB is often fueled by the bs. Was I supposed to say "no sex, it might confuse you?" Can you imagine a bh coming here and saying that is what his ws told him? They would have a field day with that it would be "she doesn’t love you, she loves your wallet." There aren’t good answers for how a ws exists inside a marriage hanging by a thread due to their own bad decisions. Your husband is giving you a chance, the best one can do is grab in with both hands and do our best with that chance.

Reality is my husband wanted to see desire for him was possible. He wanted to see me fight for our relationship, and then from that decide if I was fighting hard enough for him to consider fighting for it too. I see bs’s do that here all the time. If I had not fought, he would have assumed I didn’t want it and he would have done nothing further to save it. You see this seemingly 100 percent of the time as manipulation.

The issue is it can be a manipulation. Discernment is hard.

I do believe there is a type of cheater who does not have any intentions of changing or working on themselves. They knowingly continue to abuse, gaslight, and get you to be complacent. They likely have been abusive in some way or another their entire relationship. Those ws often have other issue like financial infidelity.

I do not see those reconciliations supported or encouraged in this site. Not at least without the ws making a full recovery in all fronts.

I am more of the position that there may be marriages worth saving and some that are not. Some ws may simply have too far to go.

I agree with HikingOut when she said it's likely a primal response but that doesn't downplay the worrying psychological factors at play. It's entirely reasonable to then associate betrayal with intense emotional sex. Does that seem healthy generally to anyone?

If you know it’s primal, then it’s almost at an uncontrollable level for the bs. Is it healthy? I don’t know, I mean it seems to hit a majority of couples that way. I would not say all, if I had to guess based on antedoctal experience I would put it at 70 percent. I am not sure if it’s a good or bad or neutral thing. I just think it’s natural and it’s more of a situation where I wouldn’t shame a bs for that being their response.

I think a ws may think they could exploit that potentially. Probably the category of cheater that I mentioned above. More often, I think it’s a temporary relief for both sides in a very emotionally confusing time after initially finding out. It’s early days stuff.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:53 PM, Tuesday, April 15th]

I find it difficult to distinguish between staying together and reconciliation. Reconciliation is really quite nebulous. It means different things to different people. Feel free to nail down exactly what this means to you. Is counseling always required for it to be considered reconciliation? What if a wayward partner feels sorry and genuinely tries to never cheat again but doesn't seek therapy? Are we only considering a very specific subset of actions that accounts for reconciliation?

I do think a number of people equate staying married with reconciliation, which can contribute to the confusion for people who never chose to repair their relationship.

I think the term restoration works better for couples who have worked hard to get back to a safe, healthy and happy marriage.

Good counseling really helped us, but it can be hard to find. In our case, our MC revealed at the end of our last session that he was a BS, and his M ended in divorce. He raised his daughter on his own. His method wasn’t about trying to rescue the M, it was to be sure we both chose the relationship from a position of strength. My wife’s esteem was a part of her fall and fail, and as many have already noted, the esteem hit taken by any BS is very traumatic.

I can’t speak for other recovered couples, but I do think counseling was a substantial part of our early healing, the rest we had to do on our own.

Ultimately, I think either partner who stays out of fear or financial reasons or even for the kids is setting themselves up for misery.

I'm not sure trauma can ever be erased—only managed to varying degrees. I believe you can recover in the sense you can recover from cancer. It's not actively killing you but you can see the lasting impact in your dig deep enough.

So, you’re saying you are not a big fan of Friedrich Nietzsche, who offered up, "That which does not kill me makes me stronger."

I’m not a huge fan of Nietzsche myself, but between his take on human resilience and my six years in the US Marine Corps, I know in my case that overcoming adversity and perseverance over trauma and negative experiences are good things.

I wouldn’t wish infidelity on anyone, but conquering that grief and being a much stronger person on the other side of it, is also a net positive for me.

All that said, I agree that trauma is never completely erased, and maybe it shouldn’t be.

I’m comfortable hating the A and that it happened. I’m also comfortable not allowing it to define me or my spouse. I do think most of us are capable of being far more than our worst decisions, worst moments, and I think that where the possibility of R begins.

As always, it seems we agree on a lot. Yet, I often feel like I say that only for you to disagree! Hahaha.

I think the main difference between us is that I strongly advocate for airing on the side of caution in case a wayward spouse turns out to be abusive. Others may argue for trusting your judgment, and while it's true that not all wayward spouses are abusive, I still prefer to take a cautious approach.

Generally, I have noticed—and this is not a rule—that often the couples who reconcile have a strong foundation built on more than sexual fidelity. They have been best friends and have had many happy years together.

I believe that any successful relationship must, as a necessity, be built on more than just sexual fidelity. The fact that a relationship encompasses more than this basic requirement does not, in my opinion, negate the importance of that base level of commitment. My current partner and I are not together solely because we are sexually loyal; we share a whole host of interests, principles, a sense of humor, and mutual respect.

All of these elements do not diminish the requirements of a relationship; rather, they underscore their importance.

Again though, HB is often fueled by the bs. Was I supposed to say "no sex, it might confuse you?"

This poses a difficult question. If HB is fueled by BS, then perhaps not. While I believe it's in no one's best interest, this understanding would at least remove the abusive manipulative element.

I do believe there is a type of cheater who does not have any intentions of changing or working on themselves. They knowingly continue to abuse, gaslight, and get you to be complacent. They likely have been abusive in some way or another their entire relationship. Those ws often have other issues like financial infidelity.

This is precisely my concern. In a rocked mental state, we should err on the side of caution. No, not every wayward spouse will use HB as a manipulation tactic, but some certainly will.

If you know it’s primal, then it’s almost at an uncontrollable level for the bs. Is it healthy? I don’t know.

Primal does not equate to uncontrollable. One could argue that the sexual lust that drives infidelity is primal; yet, many people manage to control these urges. If we can reach a consensus on whether such impulses are good or bad, it seems logical to recommend that pushing for control over these primal urges is generally advisable.

Oldwounds

Ultimately, I think either partner who stays out of fear or financial reasons or even for the kids is setting themselves up for misery.

I'm suggesting drawing reasoning from these factors is noble. Not fool proof. This will not do away with any of the hard work required to reconcile. Theoretically you can chose any reason to reconcile and if you follow the recommended path and use the correct tools be successful.

I'm simply stating that having kids or financial concerns to be motivating factors for R is not wrong at all. It's logical.

I would never reconcile. I'm not built for it for many reasons. It's against my principles. I'm pragmatic enough to know there are thousands of other compatible partners out there for me so why stick to one who didn't respect/love/care(fill in the blank here) enough to not follow the base level requirements for our relationship.

All of that said if I were to reconcile, the only factor that could motivate me would be kids. The kids would be the motivation the work would be genuine. If I was going to do it, I would do it all in for them. I would do the therapy, read the books and counselling. I'd go to ST. Anything.

What started all this on was a comment that this is somehow not a decent enough reason. To me, It's one of the deepest and most meaningful reasons.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 4:33 PM, Tuesday, April 15th]

As always, it seems we agree on a lot. Yet, I often feel like I say that only for you to disagree! Hahaha.

I like exploring philosophical discussions, so you will simply find me participating in them. The agree/disagree part is really just the nuances that exist that may not be part of a solid logic thing. There are a lot of transitional states people experience after infidelity that are hard to relate to with logic. I think most bs ise logic when possible but there is a lot of data being analyzed at the very beginning of finding out right when emotions are biggest.

I think the main difference between us is that I strongly advocate for airing on the side of caution in case a wayward spouse turns out to be abusive. Others may argue for trusting your judgment, and while it's true that not all wayward spouses are abusive, I still prefer to take a cautious approach.

I see it as this- the bs has a historical rendering of their ws that we do not have. They know that person in a way that we can’t.

I trust the bs to go through their own process. Often the ws who intends to abuse their spouse and their chances easily gives themselves away with a bs who is already in super high alert.

I try and not make assumptions only because after almost 8 years, I have learned that we all project our own fears and experiences and while we all have similarities in our experiences, every single case of cheating is unique in its own way.

I also think that the only thing we can do is trust the bs in their process. You have mentioned wwTL, and he has acknowledged he still likely would do nothing different though it took him 5 years to leave. I think often a very committed bs has to have time to go through motions and experiences to determine their course. I simply respect that. I also try and respect the fact that they still love this person who has hurt them so deeply.

Generally, I have noticed—and this is not a rule—that often the couples who reconcile have a strong foundation built on more than sexual fidelity. They have been best friends and have had many happy years together.

I believe that any successful relationship must, as a necessity, be built on more than just sexual fidelity. The fact that a relationship encompasses more than this basic requirement does not, in my opinion, negate the importance of that base level of commitment. My current partner and I are not together solely because we are sexually loyal; we share a whole host of interests, principles, a sense of humor, and mutual respect.

All of these elements do not diminish the requirements of a relationship; rather, they underscore their importance.

I agree, and sometimes they underscore the importance to the ws who has made some very bad decisions. I would tell you…and you may think I am an anomaly and dismiss this…I am now the safest, healthiest partner my husband could pick. I would never do what I did again, I believe I traumatized myself through my own bad decisions. I have great clarity now that I wish I had obtained in some other way. I appreciate him and love him in a way I would have been incapable of before. All because I put a lot of mindful and intentional work on myself. Good luck finding that in the dating pool. I say that humbly, because I know it comes with other bullshit that he may never have experienced with a new person. But I agree it underscores the importance.

I think that importance is so primary in couples that truly reconcile that it would look the way you look at it now. No more chances. Honestly, if my husband so much as lies to me (or vice versa) our marriage would be over. We didn’t come this far to lower a standard like that.

In other words, while we talk about all this stuff that is gray I think reconciled couples have a lot more black and white. We certainly do. I know neither of us will ever go through the rigors of something like this again. If one of us cheats we do so knowing that there will be no coming back from it. Cheating for me partially had to do with not a strong attachment to those values, which is not surprising given that I have seen him have sex with people in the past. My values on that are very strong now with a sense of purpose behind them.

Again though, HB is often fueled by the bs. Was I supposed to say "no sex, it might confuse you?"

This poses a difficult question. If HB is fueled by BS, then perhaps not. While I believe it's in no one's best interest, this understanding would at least remove the abusive manipulative element.

I see HB and sex bombing are two different things. Maybe you have to experience HB to understand it. I don’t know. But we can experience hb over other things besides betrayal, it’s a panic reaction.

I do believe there is a type of cheater who does not have any intentions of changing or working on themselves. They knowingly continue to abuse, gaslight, and get you to be complacent. They likely have been abusive in some way or another their entire relationship. Those ws often have other issues like financial infidelity.

This is precisely my concern. In a rocked mental state, we should err on the side of caution. No, not every wayward spouse will use HB as a manipulation tactic, but some certainly will.

If you know it’s primal, then it’s almost at an uncontrollable level for the bs. Is it healthy? I don’t know.

Primal does not equate to uncontrollable. One could argue that the sexual lust that drives infidelity is primal; yet, many people manage to control these urges. If we can reach a consensus on whether such impulses are good or bad, it seems logical to recommend that pushing for control over these primal urges is generally advisable.

I could never compare hb and affair sex. Sorry. I can’t address it under that framing. Though, I readily admit sex was not my primary urge in having the affair, and when it did happen it was performative rather than this exciting experience. So that’s all I will say in that front.

I do think some therapists advise against it. And I am not saying we shouldn’t advise against it, it’s a form of trauma bonding. I think I am just very sensitive about shaming a bs for some things they choose that are just part of human nature. Again, it’s me respecting whatever process the bs takes because people do not know what to do with all the pain. I generally think it’s not sustainable anyway.

Let me put it another way…we have had bs’s who drink a little more after dday. What do we say? You need to work on that. HB, drinking,etc, is just an attempt to self sooth. Most bs’s will transition into learning better ways to self soothe. Like I said this is early days stuff, no one goes in fully armed with what to do because they don’t think they will ever be faced with it.

So I think I am just advocating that we not shame people who are having the worst days of their life and have the response to self sooth with sex with their ws. Expecting people under very deep emotional distress to behave and decide perfectly is not realistic.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:16 PM, Tuesday, April 15th]

What started all this on was a comment that this is somehow not a decent enough reason. To me, It's one of the deepest and most meaningful reasons.

I think it’s a common and good reason people try. But I think it’s not what gets you over the finish line. A good reconciliation is when the bs has really decided they want to stay for them.

There are lots of good reasons to try and I agree this would be one of the top that we see. But if you can not become personally happy in the relationship again, kids are not going to save it. R to me would be you would want to stay even after empty nest.

We had an empty nest, so there are plenty of reason that might get you trying.

My personal definition of R would be staying together with the aim of never letting cheating happen again by any means necessary.

I'd say R requires:

WS heals WS - changes from cheater to good partner - almost definitely requires therapy, though I'm sure WSes do the work on their own. This basically amounts to identifying the self-talk that enabled the cheating and replacing it with self talk that enables/supports doing the 'next right thing.'

BS heals BS - processes feelings of anger, grief, fear, and shame out of their body - this usually requires overcoming resistance to getting self-esteem up to where it should be, and the resistance is usually very difficult to overcome.

Both partners participate in defining what their M will be going forward.

Both partners raise issues so they can reach resolutions acceptable to both partners.

It seems like a self-cleaning statistic—only those who don’t reconcile properly, according to a specific, yet-to-be-defined parameter, are labeled as reoffenders.

It seems like a self-cleaning statistic—only those who don’t reconcile properly, according to a specific, yet-to-be-defined parameter, are labeled as reoffenders.

Yeah, in some ways. OTOH, once one defines what R is for themself, it's not as self-cleaning as it seems.

While I agree it is difficult to maintain objective, logical thinking without emotions being contributing factors, I think it’s wise to aim for that approach, especially in circumstances where you could be manipulated by an abuser.

My previous statement remains unchanged. You can manipulate emotions, but you can't manipulate facts.

Facts can most definitely be manipulated. Facts MUST be manipulated. In describing a phenomenon one has to choose where to start and where to end. One has to choose words. Facts do not stand on their own when they're described.

Many years ago, the supposedly neutral Gartner reviewer praised Hitachi for delivering a a great new device that was bound to be stable because 75% of its coding was carried over from the previous version. Around the same time, but in a different issue of The Gartner Report, he castigated IBM for introducing a competing device that was dull and old fashioned because only 25% of the coding was new. Same facts, different spin. (BTW, we bought the Hitachi stuff, and it didn't come close to meeting its performance specs. By luck, we had it tested, and they fixed their code for us and for all their other buyers. Gartner's guy blew it. No performance problems were reported with the IBM device.)

Thinking that objectivity is possible blinds one to the power of emotion. IMO, your whole approach to R is emotional, and it's probably your emotions that keep you from understanding R. If a solution that works for some people is abhorrent to a person, there's likely to be a strong emotional component at work. If that's the case, it benefits that person to realize strong emotions are at work, and they probably are coloring the logic.

I don't think there's any requirement to 'understand R' in general, but I do think it makes sense to believe - or at least accept as possibly true - what people in R say about it.

And if one comments on R, having some understanding of R would seem to be a requirement.

In addition, I object to arguing that R is not possible when one doesn't understand R.

*****

Personally, I believe any M resolution - D, R, staying for the kids/convenience/finances/phase of the moon - can come primarily from strength or primarily from weakness.

Here's an example of choosing R from strength: I still want her, and I think she's a good bet for the long term, so I'm going to choose R. If R stops looking good, I'll choose another path.

I think the Fear vs. Reality thread in the D/S forum is very insightful about choosing D primarily from strength.

It may be that the difference between strength and weakness lies in considering multiple options AND having a plan B ready to be activated if the one chosen first doesn't work.

Thinking that objectivity is possible blinds one to the power of emotion. IMO, your whole approach to R is emotional, and it's probably your emotions that keep you from understanding R. If a solution that works for some people is abhorrent to a person, there's likely to be a strong emotional component at work. If that's the case, it benefits that person to realize strong emotions are at work, and they probably are coloring the logic.

I disagree with the assessment that my emotions are coloring my logic regarding "R." If this were true, I would not advocate for its use in any situation. On the contrary, I recommend "R" when I believe it is the logically sound choice. My interactions in this thread, such as my discussions with HikingOut, demonstrate my willingness to accept logically sound arguments irrespective of stance.
My rejections to argument has generally came in response to I perceive as intangible and irrational theories. I acknowledge that these theories may hold validity for others.

While I don't believe my emotions cloud my judgment, I recognize that my negative feelings might occasionally manifest in my word choice, potentially affecting the tone of my communication. This is an area I am actively trying to improve, as I understand it is separate from the substance of my arguments.
Specifically, I acknowledge that my strong negative reaction to the concept of reconciliation is irrational. I have no personal stake in such situations and understand that reconciliation can be a valid path towards positive outcomes and genuine happiness for some individuals. Therefore, I consciously try not to let this personal distaste influence my opinions or advice.

Despite this intellectual understanding, I experience a visceral reaction of disgust and pity when I hear about individuals who have suffered deep betrayal choosing to reconcile. I have witnessed this in many others. It seems to scale with the severity of the betrayal. I am genuinely curious about the root of this subconscious response. Nevertheless, I work hard to ensure t emotional response does not bias my perspectives or recommendations. That would be highly hypocritical of me.

While I don't believe my emotions cloud my judgment, I recognize that my negative feelings might occasionally manifest in my word choice, potentially affecting the tone of my communication. This is an area I am actively trying to improve, as I understand it is separate from the substance of my arguments.

This is a good example of self awareness, I think what you are describing does often make you sound a little judgmental of bs’s who go the reconciliation route.I am sure that is not your intention. Probably another contributing factor to people reading you this way is when we are in philosophical discussions, rather than maybe a specific case, anyone participating may fall into creating generalizations. (Myself included)

I think you can hear me trying to navigate that when I say things to you like there are a gradient in ws’s or in bs’s.

I have caught on to the idea that your concern is for one specific group- the bs who is actively being abused by a particularly unrepentant ws. Those cases exist. However, it may help if you can see there are plenty scenarios in which this isn’t the case. Probably at least an equal amount if my antidotal reading is correct.

Cheating happens in all kinds of marriages. And believe it or not some ws’s have a good baseline as a good person or spouse. They have come to a place in which they have acted on their worst instincts, made horrible, irrevocable decisions.

Most ws when faced with dday immediately want to control the outcome. They want to save the marriage. An apology with no changed behavior is continuing abuse. I think we see that one often. But we also see many who really want to work on themselves, who are gob smacked by what they did, and who will do what is needed. The problem is for some time both of these types of ws may sound manipulative. I think I probably did try and push things in my favor at times, but at the same time I walked the walk and haven’t pushed anything after I had a chance to heal a little in that first eight months.

Most people are not all good or all bad. I personally have been with my husband for almost 30 years. I have way better of a track record than not. I genuinely love him and always have. I do not think it was loving to cheat on him. I never lied to him outside of the affair. And yet if he wanted to divorce tomorrow because of it, I would respect it. Because I do not believe that anyone gets a pass on cheating, no matter how much they tried to make amends.

I am not trying to convince you of what I do or don’t deserve. In fact, I agree with anyone who says I didn’t deserve another chance. He gives me that grace because he loves me and in his eyes I bring far more benefit to him. He told me just this past weekend that I fulfill his life. I am not saying that to toot my own horn. I am saying it because he chose it for his own reasons that benefit him. I am not saying that in a negative way, I am trying to illustrate he chose to do it for him, not because I manipulate him, or because I have convinced him of anything, or because he feels badly for me, or any of those things.

What I am trying to say is your stereotypes about ws is what causes you to come across judgmental of the bs. Maybe it’s from you being in other forums and I haven’t seen as much variance. Because what I find about this site is we have many bs who are more like my husband. They are there because they choose to be with eyes wide open. It’s in their benefit in some way to do so.

Not every bs has this evil ws, but more like one who temporarily lost their way. Maybe that would help you at least see why not all bs are blind, timid, gritting their teeth trying to fall asleep with their spouse next to them. There are many who are there on their own accord with no one manipulating them into it.

I am just one person, but there are lots of others like me. This site used to have way more ws and many of them who stayed around were a lot like me. I am just an old timer here whose peers have all moved on and left. There were many before me who helped me find my way.

And as far as the bs on this site, there are too many bad ass ones to name. And some of them who are trying to navigate this shit show, they are bad asses in training. Most all of us who come to this site, ws and bs alike, are lost in that first 6-12 months. We all make a lot of mistakes during that time. But I have witnessed most of us do evolve. And as that happens you will see the divorces or reconciliation start.

I think there are a ton of couples who just rugsweep it. And that to me is the biggest predictor of a bs who comes here years later who never healed, or the ws who reoffends.

Bs heals bs. Ws heals ws. And if that is successful they will be able to repair the marriage. And that, takes the kind of strength by both parties that you will never find in a stereotype.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:30 PM, Tuesday, April 15th]