SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It took me a long, long time to try and understand a mindset I’ve never experienced.

My wife’s standards with me and for herself were off the charts - until the A.

It seemed to be part of the escape, this fantasy validation world was so many horrible situations and bad trades, and zero standards.

She had blocked a lot of it out, part of the compartmentalization, and because the A was a secret she planned to take to the grave before confessing 18-years after it was over, she was barely audible describing some of it as she remembered.

Heck — one event, based simply on her description was full on assault, but she said she must of been ‘willing’ to let that moment be okay, be a part of the escape from the grind of parenthood and work life.

So, yes, I understand the premise of this thread, I’ve wrestled with it all.

Where I ended up took a while.

Are we, are any of us our very worst moments and behavior or the sum of all the things we’ve done in life?

For me, I definitely had some moments with alcohol that betrayed my own standards when I was younger. It took me a few years to conquer my poor coping mechanism. For some of my friends, they only remember my drunk days (that ended when I was 22), and assume that’s who I still am.

I am still that guy, even though I haven’t been drunk in decades, but I’m much more about the healthier, happier version of me now.

I see my wife as someone who betrayed her own best interests — and me, and her family too.

I also see all of the really cool and wonderful things she has accomplished along the way.

She evolved too, beyond the horrible choices she made.

I always understand when people focus on the bad (and where many move on) but somewhere in there, I started to focus on the good.

That’s where the rebuild started, about year THREE of recovery.

I want to broaden this perspective out into a larger theory. While I cannot know the exact, intricate reality of your specific marriage or your wifes internal state, the argument she used that it wasnt about the sex, it was about validation is an incredibly common script in the world of infidelity. It is used so widely across counselling rooms and support forums that I find it highly unlikely to be true as often as people claim. In fact, I believe this specific defense mechanism has become a pervasive cultural myth designed to sanitize the reality of betrayal.

My theory is that the validation only argument is a form of collective revisionist history. When wayward partners are caught and forced to face the wreckage of their actions, they are hit with a wave of intense shame. To look a betrayed spouse in the eye and say, "I did this because I wanted a new sexual experience, I wanted to feel a different body, and I wanted the raw pleasure of different orgasms," feels too cruel, too base, and too monstrous. It forces them to own a level of hedonistic selfishness that destroys their own self image. So, consciously or unconsciously, the narrative gets rewritten. It becomes a psychological tragedy where they say they were broken, they had low self esteem, they just needed to feel seen, and sex was merely the unfortunate tax they had to pay to get that emotional fulfilment. It reframes an act of active indulgence as an act of desperate compliance.

But when we look at human behaviour objectively, this rigid separation between physical pleasure and emotional validation rarely holds up. In an affair, the two are completely intertwined. Experiencing someone elses intense physical desire for you, climaxing with a new person, and engaging in forbidden acts is the ultimate validation. The sex isnt a chore they are gritting their teeth through to receive a compliment afterward; the physical pleasure and the dopamine rush are the very vehicles delivering that validation. To claim it wasnt about the sex ignores the entire biological and psychological reality of how affairs operate. It wasnt a calculated marketplace transaction where currency was traded for goods; it was a deeply immersive, self indulgent fantasy where the physical and the psychological fed into each other.

This is why the transactional, marketplace analogy, while entirely understandable as a way for a betrayed spouse to process the filthiness of the act, ultimately gives the wayward partner too much credit. It treats them as a passive participant who lowered their price, rather than an active agent who pursued a high. By recognizing how widely this validation script is used, we can see it for what it truly is, a shield against the full weight of accountability. While it may play a role in some cases, the sheer frequency with which it is deployed suggests it is far less about historical accuracy and far more about softening the blow of a brutal truth.

Just as an addendum

I feel like I could write an entire essay on sex and it still wouldn't scratch the surface of why we do it. Sex can be a million different things all at once. It can be bonding, coping, a release, control, an ego boost, or just something you do to keep a partner satisfied. This list goes on and on. It includes boredom of a Sunday afternoon to being in such awe of someone you need to please them. This is true whether it happens inside or outside of a relationship. The reality is that people love it. Sex has broken families apart and brought empires to its knees. It drives people to murder, and it drives people to acts of great heroism.

I'm fairly certain you could analyze the type of sex your partner was having with her her AP and derive a lot of interesting insights into her whys. For example you often read stories of cheaters engaging in sex acts that are atypical for their relationship. Take for example anal sex. It's not uncommon on this forum to read accounts of a partner turning down anal sex with their primary partner but hand it out for fun with their affair partner. Their are many fold reasons for this. The 'extreme' nature of it (for vanilla types) adds to the fantasy. The affair partner pushes for it as it's an incredible ego boost that they've convinced the cheater to enact something they wouldn't with their primary partner (see waitedtoolongs history). I also think in these cases, their is often an element of resentment to their primary partner. 'They didn't deserve this' type thinking.

Personally, I feel like I have had sex for a hundred different reasons over the course of my life. When I was single, it was certainly often about an ego boost.

I have always had pretty high self esteem, but when you are single, especially off the back of experiencing infidelity yourself, sometimes you just need some validation that you have still got it. You need to know that you are still capable of attracting a member of the opposite sex and keeping them happy. Without going too far off topic or getting into too much information, I think this also explains the type of sex I primarily enjoy. You can analyze exactly what elements people are trying to get out of sex by looking at the specific type of sex they desire. If you enjoy binding someone, you likely enjoy control. If you like to be tied up and degraded, you likely have a desire to relinquish control. If you are a taker, you likely just need the physical release. If you are a giver, you likely enjoy the massive ego boost of leaving someone a quivering mess on the bed. I know that when at my most emasculated, hearing a causal sex partner say, that was the best sex of my life yada yada... was as intense as the sex itself. Irrespective of the truth of that claim ahaha.

All of this is to say that whilst I fully understand a large portion of the sex I was having back then was due to wanting an ego boost, validation if you will, I still had amazing sex. I loved the sex itself, and the validation was just one piece of the puzzle. It was not an either or situation. Similarly, I think this is exactly what happens in affairs where these claims of validation are pushed forward so heavily. The validation might have been the spark, but they were still actively enjoying the fire.

I also think it's worth noting that in my opinion sex with someone you love is always the best. It's not even close in my experience. The very best sex I've had is when I've felt so deeply in love you just want to give them as intense pleasure as possible or the times conversely where I've on the receiving end of that feeling.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 9:33 AM, Wednesday, July 1st]

Gemmy,

Its false equivalence, and your thinking is getting a little distorted.

Sex is always transactional. Nearly everything with human behavior is. The genesis of language, community, our origin as social animals, is to facilitate transactions.

The first time someone looked in another someones eyes and suggested that if we all go out and kill a deer it will be easier than if I go alone, and you can have half, we were off to the races forever as beings who cannot do anything but contract relationships for mutual benefit.

This very conversation is transactional. We hope to leave something we learned, pick up some hard won lessons we didnt earn, and possibly be seen or feel validated in our struggles. Connect, give, get. Connect, give get.

Sex is always transactional. Someone wants something, for a bit of cooperation, every time. Make me feel good. Let me feel powerful. Like me more. Please stay. Pay my bills. Feed my kids. Give me offspring.

Social crimes always revolve around nonconsensual transaction. Violence, rape, fraud, abuse, bullying, cheating, violation of non disclosure agreement. what have you. It all amounts to someone wanting something and taking it by violating the non participant party. Other party gets diminished, social criminal takes what they want. Power, money, sex, social standing, agency, whatever. It gets took. Theft. It amounts to a kind of intangible theft.

Theft of honor and sacredness. Theft of our love story. Theft of my ability to look you in the eyes. Theft of my stability. Theft of years. Dignity. Honor. Happiness.

Prostitution is exchanging money for sex. Not validation. Not chores. Theres enough to kick her to the curb without false equivocation. What she did was theft.

What she took from you, to get validation from OM? Thats what really happened here, In my honest opinion.

Seems like you know an awful lot about the singular, exact, correct reason why people engage in extramarital sex for someone who's never done it himself, DRSOOLERS. Clearly you are the expert. /s

Maybe this is an unnecessarily snarky ETA (and I do apologize if it is. Really trying not to be rude or start conflicts on here anymore) but I keep laughing to myself about how solipsistically male of a perspective it is. "Because I (a man,) have enjoyed every instance of sex regardless of the reason I was having it, that logically means that everyone else enjoys every instance of sex they have, and the enjoyment is inseparable from the reason. Even women who have As are just seeking more variety."

Nobody's ever laid back and thought of England while praying their partner was a premature ejaculator, no sir.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 1:52 PM, Wednesday, July 1st]

Yeah, it was a little snarky but that's fine. I'm a little snarky too.

However, if you are of the opinion you need to do an act to be an expert—not that I am claiming to be an expert, but nevertheless to have an opinion on something—then I would urge you to readdress that.

Do you need a counsellor who has personally had and been victim to an affair for them to have valid things to say in counselling? Does a film reviewer, music reviewer, or restaurant reviewer need to have created films, produced music, or been a chef at a restaurant to have valid opinions on their respective subject matter? Do you need your therapist to have attempted suicide to have advice on the matter? Does a doctor need to have cancer to be able to provide his patient advice? I could continue in this vein on and on, but that is enough examples.

I also think framing this as a solipsistically male perspective or some sort of gender divide misses the mark entirely. This isn't about men versus women. Both men and women are entirely capable of seeking out affairs for the sheer, unadulterated pleasure of the physical act, and conversely, both men and women are capable of using the validation script as a shield when they get caught. Human desire, ego, and the capacity to rewrite our own history to avoid shame aren't exclusive to one gender.

I also never claimed to have enjoyed every instance of sex I have had, and I can assure you that is not the case. (boy I could tell you tales) I would be surprised if that applied to anyone. Male or Female. Would you be surprised to know that virtually every guy I've ever asked has at one point faked an orgasm too. I also did not claim that there are no instances where people truly were trading sex for compliments strictly transactionally. I am sure that does happen. All I am stating is I do not believe it is as prevalent as virtually every cheater claims. We have had accounts on here where people have read in depth, graphic sexting experiences, or explicit recounts of the sex with their affair partner. That doesn't quite sound like they thought of England. It sounds like they loved the sex, they got caught, and now they underplay it and make it all about validation. I am not even doubting validation plays a part. But they liked the sex. They liked the orgasms. Just feel to ashamed to admit it.

Basically, I understand your objection, but I think you have interpreted elements of my writing that were not there.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 3:17 PM, Wednesday, July 1st]

It's even worse that prostitution. Your WW didn't just sell herself, she also gave away something that was meant for you. Imagine only giving your family the bear minimum of needs, because so much of your paycheck was going towards gifts towards another woman.

And there is the flat-out DISRESPECT. This isn't someone desperate selling herself for a fix, this is someone ACTIVELY CHOOSING to hurt and disrespect you. I gotta say this because you do need to process this sooner or later, most WW actually are *snickering* at their BH. I mean, what do you think she was thinking when she left in the morning to go meet POSOM? Didn't she laugh during DDay? What do you think she was doing with these OM? You need to really process how deep your WW's disrespect to you was.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 3:34 PM, Wednesday, July 1st]

I agree with you. It's the same way I felt.

Your writing is eloquent.

The feelings you describe are raw, and intense.

Thank you for writing.

All I'm saying is, you sound awfully confident you know the reason for doing something without having done it, when we have volumes of testimonies from people who have committed infidelity reflecting on the reasons, and they're notably disparate from what you're claiming... We tend to ascribe higher validity to the claims of people who have lived experience with regard to a given topic in general. Like, if you were going on a dangerous expedition in the Canadian wilderness, would you rather take advice from someone who's done it before, or someone who's only watched documentaries about surviving in extreme weather from the climate-controlled comfort of their living room sofa? (That is not to say you have no experience with infidelity, but you have only been on one side of it.)

If you want to posit "Surely this many people can't have only done it for validation? That seems statistically unlikely," that's fair. There may be a bias on this site for people who are introspecting here about what went on in their heads, trying to do the deep work to fix themselves, whereas for someone who just said "Forget my partner's feelings; I want sex with this other person. I don't care if that's wrong," there's not really as much exploration to do. And certainly there are people out there who quite simply wanted the sex itself, who may or may not be willing to admit it. But that's not every WS, and quite possibly not even the majority of WS.

With regard to the gendered-ness of it... The number of men who complain that they struggle to get off with their sexual partners compared to the number of women who complain that they struggle to get off with their sexual partners is remarkably different. In general, it takes a lot less skill and mental/emotional stimulation for sex to be satisfactory for men than it takes for women. Women are also often taught to use their sexuality to acquire things they value (whether that's money, labor, validation, a promotion, a grade, a role... what have you) because men pose a greater demand in the sexual marketplace, to pin their value on how sexually desirable they are, or to engage in "duty sex" to appease their higher-libido male partners. Does it make us feel good about ourselves when we do it? I would think at least 95% would say "No. It makes me feel cheap and objectified." But the sexist social conditioning certainly makes it less of a stretch for a woman to engage in sex she doesn't necessarily enjoy in and of itself in exchange for validation.

On the flip side, I think men are often more starved for attention and words of affirmation, and are conditioned to pin their value and masculinity on the number of (and often, the "quality" of) women they can attract, and in this way, the validation they might receive from an affair may be of more importance/satisfaction to them than the sex itself... However, they are also simply more likely to enjoy the sex itself because they are male, for the reasons with which I started the last paragraph.

, "I did this because I wanted a new sexual experience, I wanted to feel a different body, and I wanted the raw pleasure of different orgasms," feels too cruel, too base, and too monstrous. It forces them to own a level of hedonistic selfishness that destroys their own self image.

This actually would have been an easier sell to my husband if it were true.

Honestly, most men who haven’t cheated see cheating this way because the conjecture of the only reason they could see themselves cheating.

Yet, the same male making the conjecture wouldn’t do it because in reality sexual urges alone are not enough to motivate an affair. And any idea that this was the main reason makes it easier to understand but simplifies something far more complex.

If you think about it, over the history of infidelity for many years was mostly attributed to men and it was widely accepted that it was for more and different sex. While still not acceptable, it was understood by the patriarchal society we live in. "Boys will be boys". Their spouses were actively encouraged to look the other way.

Yet, the worst scenario you are posing seems to be women trying to cover up we are doing the exact same thing. This seems to smack of gender bias and misogyny. (Edited to add I just saw your post to morbs and maybe YOU were not being misogynistic but there is a lot of double standard when it comes to female cheating versus male)

And by the way, we have had men and women come here and that’s what they wanted and guess what, no one really blinked an eye. Because there have been a variety of reasons people list. I will not deny hedonism is sometimes at play, I just think I believe that people all reach their own conclusions all of which are valid.

My situation would have been a lot simpler to recover from if it had simply been about sex. It was about connection. I was simply underdeveloped in why I was bad at connection and falsely assumed that it was my husband’s issue. It was assnine to think I would find it in an affair. It is actually way harder to admit you were very stupid and foolish rather than just horny.

And furthermore, while I don’t believe this is true for everyone, there is a large community of relationship "experts" who will tell you sex is how men experience love, though it doesn’t have to include love. And that Women typically look for the connection first. What you are saying defies a lot of other theories, though I don’t claim to agree with any of them. We are all a spectrum.

I also am not sure whether it was for sex or connection that affects whether people reconcile. Saying that I thought I was in love with someone was completely more derailing than saying I just couldn’t resist testing him out sexually. I generally think my husband would have been open to anything I needed sexually.

Anyway, I am sorry I couldn’t resist taking the bait, Gemmy.

Dr. If you want to discuss this more make a thread. The problem with philosophical conversation in the midst of someone else’s personal experience creates too much contrast. An individual bs has to make decisions about their individual ws and whether they believe the motivations and see their spouse turning themselves inside out to find the truth. And what masses of people claim/dint claim is not relatable to figuring out what people should do in their recovery, reconciliation.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:56 PM, Wednesday, July 1st]

I gotta say this because you do need to process this sooner or later, most WW actually are *snickering* at their BH. I mean, what do you think she was thinking when she left in the morning to go meet POSOM? Didn't she laugh during DDay? What do you think she was doing with these OM? You need to really process how deep your WW's disrespect to you was.

Snickering? This is your own imagination. It literally sounds delusional.

Every relationship we have has some kind of "transactional" aspect to it.

We get love and admiration from our kids. Is that "prostitution"?

We get love and sex from our spouse. In exchange, they get something back from us, too. Is that prostitution?

We get fun times with our friends, in exchange for companionship or friendship. Prostitution?

Every interaction we have has a purpose, an exchange of some kind.

Prostitution is sex acts in direct exchange for something of value.

I don’t agree with the premise offered.

@morbs

Your wilderness analogy makes sense on the surface, but it falls apart because of the specific psychology involved here. If I want to know the safest route through the Canadian wilderness, yes, I ask the explorer. But if that explorer accidentally burned down a village while they were out there, I would be much more sceptical of their self reported reasons for doing it.

The issue with relying solely on lived experience in this specific scenario is that the wayward partner has every reason to lie. Firstly, they want to minimise the pain they have inflicted on their partner. But just as importantly, they need to lie to themselves. They desperately do not want to believe that a massive part of destroying their partners reality was simply to chase a fleeting orgasm or a bit of physical novelty. To cope with that guilt, they can easily convince themselves that their revisionist version of history is the absolute truth. If you want to understand the psychology of a crime, you generally trust the criminologist or the psychologist analysing the motives rather than blindly accepting the desperate rationalisations of the perpetrator.

When you say, "Surely this many people cannot have only done it for validation? That seems statistically unlikely," that is pretty much exactly what I am saying. I have just fleshed out the theory as to why it happens so frequently, and why the validation narrative is so heavily relied upon as a protective shield for the ego.

Regarding the gendered elements you mentioned, you could well be correct statistically speaking. I cannot speak to those exact numbers, but I can certainly imagine that those societal pressures and dynamics exist. My point was simply that regardless of gender, the capacity to use the validation script to underplay the physical reality of an affair remains an incredibly powerful and common human response to shame.

As an addendum, this will be my last piece of dialogue on this thread given hikingout does not see this line of discussion as helpful to the OP. I actually disagree on that point. I think it is highly pertinent to the conversation and I hope it helps the OP clarify his thoughts, but I will take her advice on board nevertheless and bow out here.

Feel free to hear that from the op. I am not a mod.

I simply think anything that derails a conversation so easily may not be the best fit. Even if that was unintentional. Generally I said it because it’s an interesting debate but continuing it here may stifle the thread.

I will say this to clarify something for Gemmy.

Saying people lie because they don’t want to admit they just wanted sex doesn’t make sense because at least that is a tangible, logical trade. It’s just as hard to say you chased false validation and now have had sex to keep it going. In some ways does that not sound more foolish?

There is little difference in the level of foolishness one feels for throwing away the best thing in their life for something fleeting and not really worth it.

I certainly admit to being foolish.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:26 PM, Wednesday, July 1st]

@hikingout

I appreciate the clarification, and I completely understand where you are coming from regarding wanting to keep the thread focused.

To answer your question from a psychological perspective, admitting you threw away your marriage because you wanted a fleeting orgasm often carries a heavier burden of raw selfishness and hedonism. Reforming it as chasing false validation allows a person to view themselves as broken, damaged, and needy rather than simply malicious or self indulgent. In that sense, human nature often prefers to look foolish or broken rather than looking cruel. Everyone wants to be the victim. No one wants to be a selfish prick.

On your point about foolishness, I agree completely. There is little difference in the level of pain and foolishness one feels for throwing away the best thing in their life for something fleeting and not really worth it.

However, looking at why people default to the validation argument, it is actually a far easier sell when you think about it logically. Imagine someone telling their friends or family, "I slept with someone else because my partner wasnt validating me and wasnt giving me enough attention." That is a much easier sell than saying, "Look, my partner is great, but I just wanted some strange." I know it is the easier sell because it is exactly what people default to. You rarely hear cheaters, reformed or otherwise, simply put it on the table that they just wanted some exciting sex and they had the opportunity.

Rarely - you do on occasion. I'm not denying that.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 4:35 PM, Wednesday, July 1st]

I am truly sorry for this post. I usually try to write to help, this was more raw and hurtful than helpful.

I am sorry, it was selfish indulgence and hurtful to those I didn't intend. I am just suffering these past few days.

I don’t think you have hurt anyone here. Posting in our darkest times is needed and what you are saying is valid. It is tender and vulnerable and you are not obligated to post to help others. This is the help YOU needed and honestly if you feel that way perhaps some of us failed you. There is nothing wrong with feeling this way or trying to find the antidote.

Now how do I move forward? I see the shape and it is deeply disturbing to me. I cannot look at her right now.

You need to keep monitoring yourself and your W, and you need to exercise patience.

Have faith that you will eventually come down right for you. Go with your flow, and expect yourself either to look at your W with love again or not. If you do, the way is likely to be open to R; if you don't, the way is probably open to D.

Give up trying to control the outcome. Both outcomes can lead to a good life when they develop organically.

*****

W & I were parents of an infant and toddler when the feminists of the '70s were arguing that M is a form of prostitution. At first I argued against them; then I realized they were at least partly right. Maybe we do give to get in M. Even when we are giving the maximum - one partner does everything while caring for an ailing partner, with no guarantee that the ailing partner will recover - maybe we do it in repayment of things the partner has done for us or in the expectation of reward in the future.

But maybe the epitome of M is, in fact, the giving with no guarantee of repayment. Maybe the essence of M is non-transactional; maybe it is.

Maybe the essence of an A is transactional; maybe not. Maybe prostitution requires paying something that is a financial asset, in which case As are usually not prostitution. Maybe it isn't prostitution unless it fits a locality's legal definition.

IDK. I have little hope of get a universal answer to 'Is the relationship prostitution or just something that has characteristics of prostitution?' Knowing I won't find a definitive answer keeps me from spending much time or energy on the question, but that's not everybody's approach.

*****

I read DRS to say, first, validation is not the reason for infidelity; it's just psycho-babble. And second, sex for him has always been about validation.

I believe the 2nd part is true, and I don't understand where the 1st part came from.

*****

At home, I want to be known, and I'd rather be loved than respected. Respect wasn't a big issue for me in my W's infidelity. Love was - did she love me? Did I choose the wrong person tp love?

Truly I do things and think thoughts that aren't always respectable, and I'd be worried if my W respected those actions and thoughts. I like knowing my W loves me despite my faults. I'm happy that I've found someone whom I love despite her faults.

I don't think I'm alone. Personally, I doubt there's a single human being ever who is 100% respectable.

I know there are people in my circle who do not respect me. The feeling is mutual, which may be my problem. But I respect myself as a human being and therefore imperfect by nature. I don't and won't let the fact that others don't respect me doesn't destroy my self-respect.

*****

Snickering?

We see testimony again and again that the WS does not think about the BS WRT the A. Again and again WSes say they were too wrapped up in their own issues to think about anyone but themselves. So I believe hikingout, and foreverlabeled, and BSR, and....

Sometimes we do read about WSes who trashed their BSes during their A(s). Certainly some aps think they've put something over the BS. But the hurt and the damage to the BS will vary inversely with the level of the BS's self-respect. The higher the BS's self respect, the lower the damage.

That's one of the reasons so many recovered BSes tell newbies to focus on themselves, on their own healing, on figuring out what they want, etc., etc., etc.

Healing from infidelity requires evaluating one's self-talk and discarding anything that is not nurturing and/or not backed up by facts.

If I had more time right now, I'd ask Claude to search the research for info on how many WSes snicker at their BSes during the A. Just sayin'....

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:06 PM, Wednesday, July 1st]

Mine snickered, laughed, insulted, and joked about how clueless I was, and unfortunately not just to AP but her friends as well.

I am going to give a set of bullet points because I can't seem to pull together my thoughts coherently.

1) I get the prostitute comparison but think it is, for the most part, inaccurate. Prostitutes (at least this is what I imagine) have no emotional connection. They play a role to get paid. They perform to get paid. Same as a porn star. Might they enjoy the sex? I don't know, but they wouldn't be doing it in that moment unless they are going to get paid.

2) The better analogy for me is a drug addict. Drug addicts pay to get high. They need the next hit. They dream of it. It is still transactional but far different in my eyes. Their dopamine systems are captured, so they pay. They scheme, they lie... all for the next hit. I think A that are more than a ONS are like that. Love may or not be part of the mix but the physical and emotional high from the A is present just like it is for the drug addict. Thus may A last a long time and the WS says "I wanted to end it but didn't know how" Dopamine addict, validation addict, excitement addict. Maybe even more potent if everyday life has lost it's taste and your self esteem is low... all danger signs for addiction perhaps.

3) I believe that A that are really only about validation (dopamine high included) are not seen that way in the moment. Because validation is connected emotionally. People who are validated are feeling great, excited, desired and if it is flirting then eventually turned on. All that leads to sex. The prostitute does not feel that way.

4) Those dynamics from #3 can be present in the start of a real, long term loving relationship or a short term fling for a single person just as much as they are present during an A. Sure, the short term fling wasn't love once it was in the rear view mirror but it might have gone there. "I wasn't sure where it would lead but... it felt so good at the time! Now I see we would never have worked". Do you see how that is a natural process for dating? And that during a long term A, WS often feel the same way? "I'm not sure if it's love but it feels so good I don't want it to end". Or " I think I love him" Or "I do love him but I love my husband too, it's confusing". Dopamine highs are at the root of it physiologically but the emotions can be interpreted a dozen ways whether it is a single person dating or a WS starting an A.

5) I do not doubt that our deeply introspective WS here at SI (and in this thread) have found their truth about sex during their A being solely a means to validation. I admire and have learned much from many FWS here. But I am not sure that every WS who says these words believes them. Your WW could have read this idea on the internet and thought that this rationale will not hurt as much as the alternatives. Saying I gave sex so I would continue to feel good about myself sounds less painful than I had sex because I was falling in love, I had sex because I was so turned on, I had sex because he was so attractive I couldn't say no, because I was thinking of him day and night and I gave in to my desires. All those ideas sound much more comparative and thus hurtful to the BS because in some way that means they wanted that person more than you at that moment. I think it leads some WS to offer the validation rationale as a means to minimize the pain for the BS rather than articulating a hard won truth from deep introspection like Hikingout or Foreverlabeled. But either way, woldn't it be true that shea was feeling a dopamine high and that some of those thoughts and feelings about time with her A partner were present in her mind? Yes, I think so. Not like a prostitute at all.

And on top if it all, sex is sex and if your lover is attentive, you will likely enjoy it. In her long term A the sex wasn't some mechanical thing for her and then she collected her money. I actually believe that in a ONS the sex might turn out to be not that physically enjoyable, particularly for a woman. But in a long term A? That's hard to swallow, dopamine high from validation or not.

So I would dump the prostitute analogy as inaccurate. But i am not sure if this helps you move forward in any way.

[This message edited by Trdd at 6:19 PM, Wednesday, July 1st]