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I think that there are no good reasons people have an affair. It’s just that they wanted to. Period. Yes cheaters will admit they liked the attention and maybe they didn’t want it stop, but no one is forcing them to have sex with someone — they are doing it because they want to

I agree. I have often said I did it because I wanted to. But what we are talking about is why did I want to.

We eat ice cream because we want to.

Maybe we are stress eating. Maybe it’s a reward. Sometimes to stop eating it you have to figure out the root cause and find alternatives.

It doesn’t excuse the beahiour or take back that twenty pounds you gained eating ice cream. I am not saying accept this because of my reason. I am saying learning the reason can help a ws figure out the work, and a bs who does want to stay in the marriage it provides gauges on how to evaluate that work.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:51 PM, Thursday, July 2nd]

Dr-

Looking back through a lens of self-actualization allows you to see the underlying emotional malnutrition that drove the bus. But to a betrayed spouse standing in the immediate wreckage, separating the "performative" nature of the sex from the raw, agonizing fact of its physical reality feels like an impossible semantic game.

No one is asking Gemmy to accept his wife’s answers. I know I have specifically said to him and a host of other bs that his job is not to empathize with her right now. His job is to focus on his own recovery.

I do not think there is an acceptable reason to cheat.

I think there are processes that one must go through as a ws that can make you a more reliable partner and a happier person. And that’s what the ws here share about. That’s our experience we bring to the table. It’s helpful for other waywards, and it’s helpful to provide a gauge of what the work should look like to a bs.

But no one is asking any new bs to do mental gymnastics. This thread came from gemmy’s but it’s a universal thing. In his specific case he is trying to evaluate whether it was prostitution but asked specifically how to get over that. That’s the question I personally was trying to focus on.

And his wife did make an appearance here. You wrote in her thread. But often a new ws isn’t ready to the comments that come, which is why we usually recommend the stop sign. Statistically I think you will find more new ws stay if they post behind the stop sign for a while.

Anyway, let’s keep this more universal even if the source of this conversation was on a specific member.

I see my role here as to provide support and context to the framework of ws recovery.. Not to pretend what I did was right or justified. I have told many bs not to put up with what they are seeing from their ws.

And I do agree not all ws are the same as far as whether they will dig in and face what they need to work on. Read the last paragraph of my last post and you will see I said that clearly.

However the reason I would tell you that we do not know whose ws will come through or who should reconcile or who shouldn’t is because we did these awful things too. Same as them. What we eventually did about it came down to mattering too. So it maybe shocks me a little less because I know my own darkest times, and it matters to me what they will do moving forward rather than knowing they are not redeemable as a spouse. I trust that decision to their bs.

As far as seeing evidence of what was said. I had thousands of texts between the ap and I. It was damning. There is no such thing as lack of participation in an affair and the mindset one has while in it is atrocious. And you are right, no one should trust their ws in the months following discovery.

What reconciliation means to me is there has been a recovery period with a lot of healing, and then you start to rebuild with someone who has greatly improved. It’s starting over. But who I was that first year was not a reliable partner. I didn’t do anything close to continuing to cheat, but I had a lot of work to do in earning my way back to a chance in Hell of staying married. No matter if you divorce or reconcile that first year is a bitch.

And I do not think reconciliation is viable in all circumstances. It’s just difficult to tell early in which way it should actually fall. Most bs need time to reorient themselves as leaving the marriage is a big decision.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:06 PM, Thursday, July 2nd]

DRSOOLERS, it is my impression that you seek to be understood rather than to seek to understand. In much of what you write, your deep loathing and contempt for wayward spouses is glaringly obvious, despite your best efforts to vail it with civility. And so it seems to me that your reasons for being here are motivated by a need to validate your biases and disposition.

I did not see Gemmy's original post on that thread as a deep analysis of the validity of his wife's claim. What I saw was raw pain. What I saw was a man wrestling with what most of cannot reconcile: the imbalance between sacrificing so much in exchange for so little. What I saw was a man deeply tormented by the incongruence of suddenly seeing the woman he loves, his WIFE, the mother of his children, as a prostitute.

That all of this appeares to have alluded you only reinforced my impression that you're not here to learn, gain a little insight or wisdom, but to impose your conviction that all cheaters are "morally repugnant" people unworthy of your consideration.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 5:32 PM, Thursday, July 2nd]

I think where we are talking past one another, DRSOOLERS, is that in affairs that turn sexual, yes, the sex is had, and/or the sexting/masturbation is done. But for some, the reason for engaging in the physical/sexual aspect of those acts, the motivation isn't because of sexual pleasure; it's the way the AP makes the WS feel psychologically or emotionally.

Sorry I keep using myself as an example, but I don't really have anyone else to describe... But prior to and during the A, my H fulfilled all of my sexual needs. It was good and frequent. What he didn't meet was my need to feel wanted/desirable/sexy/powerful... I experience spontaneous libido, which is essentially horniness that arises without a clear reason or trigger. Whenever that would happen and H is not willing/available, I'd normally just take care of myself. During the A, I started using my AP as an aid to feel that wanted/desirable/sexy/powerful aspect when I was taking care of my own sexual needs. In order to extract that from the AP, I had to sext with him. And I will confirm that I said things to him that were absolutely not true-- compliments, expression of desire, things I supposedly wanted to do with him, etc.-- in order to keep that validation coming. I planned to have sex with him to derive validation from indicators of desire/sexual excitement from him, even if I suspected it wasn't going to be sexually enjoyable for me.

So I just think:

If the WS is already sexually satisfied within their marriage,

If the WS isn't actually attracted to the AP,

If the WS's primary motivation is the internal psychological benefit derived from interaction with the AP,

Then it is possible to separate the sexual nature of the A away from the validation aspect, even if the WS is sexting or engaging in sex with the AP, such that one could claim it was "just" or "only" for the validation.

I think Unhinged hit the nail on the head here.

This whole time in every response of DRS I kept thinking there has to he some kind of disconnect because I was left scratching my head a time or two. This guy is highly articulate and uses very clean logic but he is circling without ever actually landing the plane.

One, as Unhinged pointed out he's not here to understand. He has the "right" answer and that's all that matters.

Two, His "smoking gun", the "hard data" of graphic sexts and ecstatic journal entries written during the affair. He looks at a text that says, "That was the most mind-blowing sex of my life," and says, "See? The data proves they loved the flesh! To say it was about validation afterward is a rewrite."

​This is a profound misunderstanding of how the brain processes pleasure under the influence of a psychological high. He is treating the journal entries of an active addict like a sober laboratory report.

If a heroin addict hits a vein and writes in their journal, "This is the greatest, most beautiful feeling on earth," a rational person doesn't look at that and say, "Wow, they must be a true connoisseur of poppy plant derivatives! They just really love the physical chemistry of the drug." No. You recognize that the intensity of their physical pleasure is directly proportional to the depth of the pain and emptiness they are running from.

​When a wayward is in the fog, the sex feels earth-shattering not because the AP is a sexual savant, but because the dopamine hit of being desired magnifies every physical nerve ending by a thousand percent. When the affair ends, the fog clears, and they sober up, they look back and realize, "Oh. The sex itself wasn't actually anything special. I was just higher than a kite on the attention."

Categorizing someone as just a selfish prick is easy. It keeps the world simple, clean, and easy to judge. Facing the terrifying reality of human brokenness, low self-esteem, and the internal voids that drive people to destroy their own lives is messy and uncomfortable.

​@Unhinged

​I'm sorry to hear that, stay strong.

@morbs

I'm sorry. I genuinely feel like I understand what your saying and just simply disagree. Perhaps that is not happening and I've got a wire loose on this topic. I promise I will reread this thread and see if my perspective changes but at this time I still disagree.

​@foreverlabeled

​It is getting increasingly difficult to land the plane with all these references to the "fog," but I keep trying to wrap up my thoughts as didn't think more coildy be said only for your comments to pull me right back in. Haha

​

If a heroin addict hits a vein and writes in their journal, "This is the greatest, most beautiful feeling on earth," a rational person doesn't look at that and say, "Wow, they must be a true connoisseur of poppy plant derivatives! They just really love the physical chemistry of the drug." No. You recognize that the intensity of their physical pleasure is directly proportional to the depth of the pain and emptiness they are running from.

​This is our fundamental disagreement in a nutshell. I don't think it's a disconnect but rather a difference of opinion Honestly, you couldn't have chosen a more apt analogy if you tried.

​The way I see it, the user’s description of the pleasure they are feeling mid-high is entirely accurate. Heroin is chemical euphoria. Someone who is actively high on heroin giving an account of that experience is describing genuine, immense physical pleasure, and that description is entirely correct in that moment.

​It is only retrospectively—once the high wears off, the addiction has ruined their life, and they are left staring at the wreckage of compulsively chasing that high—that they look back and conclude it was a terrible, destructive thing.

​This is precisely the point I wasn't trying to make about how (some undetermend percent of) waywards describe their affairs. The retroactive reframing of the physical reality doesn't change what was felt in the dark while it was happening. I actually think this analogy explains my position better than I ever managed to originally

Categorizing someone as just a selfish prick is easy

If only it was that easy. I truly wish it was. If it was we would have got a lot more betrayed spouses out of a lot of abusive relationships far sooner and a lot more whole.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 6:58 PM, Thursday, July 2nd]

If only it was that easy. I truly wish it was. If it was we would have got a lot more betrayed spouses out of a lot of abusive relationships far sooner and a lot more whole.

I think your blind spot here is that is what we are all here fighting for—-we would ALL like to see betrayed spouses get out of an abusive relationship as soon as possible.

The larger majority of us simply believe there is more than one way to make that happen. Either the abuser stops abusing and can make the needed repairs and create the new infrastructure, or the bs should leave. We all agree on the bs should not stay and be unhappy or accept more abuse.

I think you feel like the abuser doing their part is unlikely or low odds. I think they are higher than what you believe they are but no one here really knows. Nor do we have any idea which ones will move forward and fight the fight, so for many of us posting the options are for the bs to sort through based on their own knowledege and experience.

At the end of the day far more bs’s stay in the abusive relationship without the reconciliation. We see them come here all the time decades into a marriage they should have either confronted or left.

This site informs bs of other choices. Gives them a place to weigh it all. This require a big mountain climb for the bs no matter what the ws does.

This site informs them there is framework on the various angles of solving this problem. Gives them ideas of things they can consider requiring, different points of view, allows them to get some gentle support alongside reality checks.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:03 PM, Thursday, July 2nd]

ForeverLabeled wrote:

If they're showing up, doing the work, answering questions, admitting things that don't put them in a good light, and still saying the sex wasn't great? I'd believe them. Again, I've heard it from people who got no benefit from lying to me.

This appears to be the case with my wife. It's been over a year. She's admitted to many things that painted her in a bad light. Including admitting that she enjoyed the sex. There are some aspects of her story that are frankly, very hard to believe. However, given what she has told me, and the fact that she will absolutely die on those hills I'm inclined to want to believe her. Afyer about a month of trickle truth she has not wavered one tiny bit on the facts she's presented of the affair.

GotTheMorbs wrote:

I experience spontaneous libido, which is essentially horniness that arises without a clear reason or trigger. Whenever that would happen and H is not willing/available, I'd normally just take care of myself.

You just described my wife. And I was clueless about it. She was so ashamed and embarrassed that she had such a strong sex drive that she just never said anything about it. She thought I'd look at her like she was some kind of deviant freak or something. Um... NOT. We always had a very active sex life up until I was put on sertraline, but I had no clue how strong her drive was. Looking back tho, In 28 years she has never, ever said no. Not once. I can imagine how it made her feel when I just stopped trying.

Now I know that she's always "on." Always. I kick myself for taking so long to figure it out, but at the same time she actively kept it from me. I've learned more about her wants and needs in the last year than I did in the first 27.

Menopause has only increased it. She loves menopause. She hardly has anything negative to say about the experience. Not having a cycle anymore or having to worry about coming up pregnant has only enhanced our sex life. It's kinda crazy, but I'm not complaining. I just hope I can continue to keep up. So far, so very good tho.

Idk.. DRS .. it feels like you are still stopping short (Or maybe I'm missing something) No one is denying that the addict feels immense physical pleasure in the moment. Of course they do. If the drug didn't feel amazing, it wouldn't function as a drug.

​But look at what else addicts do. They lie, they cheat, and they steal from the very people they love just to fund their next hit. A rational person doesn't look at an addict pawning their mother's wedding ring and say, "Wow, they must just really love pocket cash."

You recognize the terrifying desperation of the sickness.

They aren't stealing because they hate their family, they are stealing because the frantic need to numb their internal void has completely hijacked their morality.

​The betrayal of an affair is that exact same theft. We didn't steal our partners peace and blow up our families because a physical sensation was a fair trade. We did it because the hunger for validation was so blinding that it overrode our entire conscience.

​Enjoying the high and lying to cover up the theft are just symptoms of the addiction. It does not change the deficit that drove us to pick up the needle in the first place.

@Unhinged

​I'm sorry to hear that, stay strong.

The betrayal of an affair is that exact same theft. We didn't steal our partners peace and blow up our families because a physical sensation was a fair trade. We did it because the hunger for validation was so blinding that it overrode our entire conscience.

Yeahno I don't believe this. I just don't believe it is true for most affairs. Maybe some, maybe yours, but not most.

Sometimes, most often I'd say, people cheat just because they are selfish pricks who only care about their own pleasure and they don't even care about whom they hurt.

ETA: Not trying to be dismissive, just blunt and trying to convey how strongly I feel.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 12:42 AM, Friday, July 3rd]

We did it because the hunger for validation was so blinding that it overrode our entire conscience.

Sometimes people cheat just because they are selfish pricks who only care about their own pleasure and they don't even care about whom they hurt.

I think foreverlabeled’s why fits my case quite well. My ex had an unhealthy need to be seen as amazing. She affaired way down so that she could be seen as the incredible, successful one, as opposed to just being a mom and my partner.

All this reminds me of my alcoholic father. Do you subscribe to alcoholism as a disease and as such give the addict a degree of pity? Or do you simply see them as selfish hethens and direct nothing but scorn their way? I don’t know, I oscillated between those views. In practice, nothing about how I understood it internally did jack squat to stop him from drinking himself to an early death 🤷

Alcoholism and deciding to have an affair are two different things, InkHulk.

Are they that different though? It's the alcoholic's choices that lead them to pick up the bottle every time, regardless of who it hurts... I know there's a biological dependence element with alcohol, but other than that...?

Non sequitur, kind of: my AP was an alcoholic. How much of a "catch" he was keeps hitting me

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 11:00 PM, Thursday, July 2nd]

​@foreverlabeled

I don’t think you're missing my point; I think we are standing on opposite sides of the exact same coin.

​Let's look at it this way: suppose we agree that, generally speaking, severe depression, navigating a miserable life, or being fundamentally broken are the exact conditions that lead someone to abuse drugs as a form of escapism.

​But acknowledging that psychological background does not mean the actual physical experience of taking the drug doesn't feel absolutely amazing. In fact, that intense pleasure is tightly bundled into why the depressed person takes the drug in the first place. They are acutely aware that the substance makes them feel incredible; they currently feel terrible, and they actively want to feel amazing. The presence of the underlying misery doesn't somehow neutralize the physical euphoria of the high.

​Now, drawing the parallel back to our original topic: suppose a wayward partner has a deep, dysfunctional need for validation. Driven by that internal deficit, they find themselves entangled in an ongoing affair, and as a part of that parallel life, they engage in sex.

​In specific cases—especially where the hard, uncovered evidence shows they were deeply enthusiastic participants—the same rule applies. The validation may very well be the emotional engine that drove them to cross the line, but that doesn't mean the physical reality of the sex wasn't highly enjoyable, intensely pursued, and eagerly repeated.

​The underlying psychological wound and the selfish, hedonistic enjoyment of the physical act exist at the exact same time. Recognizing the deficit explains why they opened the door to the escape, but in the immediate aftermath of D-Day, claiming it was only about validation too often sounds like an addict trying to convince themselves—and their partner—that they never actually cared about the high. They did. Deeply and wholly.

The analogy falls down because heroin always feels amazing where sex doesn't. But it does often enough for enough people to draw a fair assumption that a unspecified amount of WS are either simply lying to themselves. Retrospectively tarring the memory or overtly minimising the greatness to their partner: I.e what BSR said in her post.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 11:31 PM, Thursday, July 2nd]

Alcoholism and deciding to have an affair are two different things

All models are wrong…

I'm not a deep thinker nor a good debater, InkHulk. And so I'll have to take your word on that. I just see too much glee on the part of WS cheating on good kind partners and I just feel a strong sense of anger. I want the BS to feel that same anger and get himself the hell out of there.

*Not ALL WS but too many

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 1:29 AM, Friday, July 3rd]

I think all that works in the comparison to an alcoholic. Or a heroin junky. It is a perfectly reasonable posture to be furious with them, IMO.

It sounds like maybe you have some sympathy for an alcoholic, or am I reading too much into your response?

I do indeed have a lot of sympathy and compassion for an alcoholic, because I can see that they are already really really hurting themselves as much as their loved ones. I can understand from what you have said my friend, if you have stronger more intense feelings on top of or besides that.