SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Interesting, I like to offer the mirror to this as I think it stems from the same roots even if it take a different emotional pathway.

Mind I very likely don’t see sex in the most common acception I read here, I would rather call it intercourse, which is also a bad descriptor, but let’s say, self contained, compartmentalized, self soothing endeavor.

You do that only to please yourself and the other person is a mere mirror that fills the spot so you can take (whether they use you for the same is irrelevant here).

Is not much more than a masturbation with a fantasy and a living prop.

If you are very lonely it can alleviate it to some extent in the moment, leaves you with nothing tough, you may crave the moment but is pouring water in a bottle where the bottom broke.

Sex is instead the physical manifestation of a connection. Does not necessarily need love but it is nourishing, fulfilling and leaves you something, a lot actually. It doesn’t even need intercourse, though it most likely happens, to be sex.

What needs is the "fucking mask" off, even just for the moment is two people unafraid to be themselves, vulnerable and connected.

Then there’s making love which has the above a order of magnitude greater, hard to pinpoint what in few words, picture having sex but with your most intimate self, your soul if you wish.

And no you don’t wish to downgrade when you tasted the real deal, and you can only really taste it when you can let go.

Of course, there’s a drawback. Heights are desired and desirable but the higher you reach the harder the fall if you fall.

Up to sex you are relatively safe, it’s a shared joy (with tendency to lead up, that’s why "relatively safe" if you encore) in the moment, is not taking is sharing, you both feel good and can be self contained or left at that (it might be a good choice if you like the partner but see incompatibilities or red flags).

With love you are screwed. Once it’s given you can’t get it back. (Isn’t a negative. Unless you "fall")

The rarity of it makes it a greater treasure than you probably think, you know often only when you lose it.

My experience was of the first, degrading intercourse kind most of the time, sex was a much rarer experience maybe had with just 2 dozens girls, all potential good life partners weren’t I avoidant and broke by my first betrayal, but that’s what it does to you. And love is only 4.

3 of those betrayed me so that makes me a rather cautious against love

There’s a bias, nonetheless while I can happily live my life with "just " sex , I do want it. It’s worth the risk, that is how "different " the thing is.

The "intercourse " (again misnomer but I can’t call it sex, consider it a nicer replacement for the f verb)? Does not even rank.
That’s easy to get access to someone else pants, is just game, and isn’t that much better than what you can do with your hands.

It’s a necessary step in growing up when you are teenager but I am kind of bored of that bullshit, I see adults thirsty for that with a mix of pity and disgust.

Unfair surely, some people just didn’t follow through and grew up, and sometimes they are willing to trash gold for pebbles.

It’s sad not enraging, but you must take it into account when you meet someone. That’s what I call red flags.

Long winded premise and I have the crystal sea in front calling , so let me cut to the point

I understand the performance and "bad sex" (again according to my premise I wouldn’t call it sex, but let’s don’t make this post the lord of the rings), even horrible sex and you can still go back for more and even search for it because there’s an emotional void and chaos pushing you to find a fix.

I experienced it with my wayward wife, the only cheater I ever allowed back, and for the longest time I wanted to vomit.

Yes I did manage to get it working (harder task than you would in this condition, it’s not natural as it is with a new partner), yes you can get off and seal the deal, yes you can pleasure your partner…. But really I would have had more pleasure in unclogging my toilet from strangers turds with my bare hands than to share my body with this woman.

I did and did and did it again for years because it was expected, part of the performance so I dysfunctionally followed the script. And still wanted to vomit, to die and to get over it asap.

That was betrayal turning love into intercourse, the filthiest one I ever had.
And I went back for it for almost 20 years, except a break when she left me for a couple of weeks for one AP before crawling back, so I had the chance to be with a dozen of girls and discovered it wasn’t sex that broke, it was broken love that made it nasty.

Oh and when she came back the vomitoneter skyrocketed obviously.

So yes, from a different perspective, but I do know what you can do when you are messed up. I believe it since I lived it.

You can do things that you would think are wonderful with little to no joy at all. Or a twisted one.

Ego is truly a thing to thread carefully. Even if I preferr it to be dead.

Killing it was the best thing in my life

@Unhinged

And here I am thinking you laughed earlier because it was a funny joke that I made. You break my heart, Unhinged.

To be direct, I didn't respond to your previous comment because I found your observations boring, and I didn't see how engaging with them was going to help anyone with anything. Obviously, it goes without saying that I think you're completely wrong.

The reason I am on this forum is that when I was going through my own circumstances, I saw almost no representation of the ideas or the mindset that I held, which made me feel rather alone. Now that I am in a good place in my life, I want to pay it forward by arguing from that specific, often underrepresented perspective.

We have a ton of people on this forum who are exceptionally good at providing the emotional support elements of recovery, and a ton of people who are great at offering relationship advice. We also have members who excel at reconciliation guidance, and others who are fantastic with the sheer practicalities of the situation, such as navigating the best steps to take during a separation or a divorce. All of these things are incredibly useful, necessary, and great.

But for me personally, having a space to logically discuss the mechanics of these situations and sort through my thoughts is just as—if not more—useful than standard emotional validation. I'm not saying I'm Spock; I am a human being, and I am obviously an emotional creature navigating this wreckage just like everyone else. However, I firmly believe that logically working things out, stress-testing narratives, and deconstructing the arguments we are given is an incredibly vital part of healing. It helps ground you when everything else feels chaotic.

Since that is my goal, I didn't see any value in responding to your personal critique of my writing. You have your opinions, and you're welcome to enjoy them. But what I write is clearly not for you. It is for people who think like me and are actively struggling to make sense of things.

You claim that I have a thinly veiled contempt for waywards. To that, I’d say I am sure I have my biases. I try to inform my words primarily with logic and reason—relying on statistics and hard data where possible—but let's be honest: everyone on this site carries biases based on their past experiences. You constantly see pro-reconciliation members desperately twisting the narrative to find the best in clearly abusive waywards, while the pro-divorce lobby claims an incredibly remorseful wayward is entirely irredeemable. To be clear though, I'm for sure biased towards divorce due to my interpretation of the stats combined with my lived experiences. I separated and it was hard at first but longer term my life got better. Better in every imaginable way. My mother hung on too long and it crushed her. So yes, I often imagine that biases my view towards separation over reconciliation.

That all being said, some of the most useful dialogue I've had on this site has actually been with hikingout, and I've certainly learned a lot from her thoughts and experiences. I would hope she'd agree that we have been overwhelmingly respectful of one another across many threads. Even though she is relatively new here, I also really enjoy reading GotTheMorbs' posts quite a lot; while we might hold different opinions, I think she approaches problems in a very similar way to me—highly logically (i hope she doesn't find that an insult ahah). Furthermore, while I haven't had too many direct interactions with BraveSirRobin, I found her post here to be incredibly enlightening, and based on this thread alone, foreverlabeled seems exceptionally intelligent.

All of these members are wayward spouses. I find their posts valuable and accurate because they engage logically, use sound reasoning, and speak honestly from their lived experiences.

In fact, the person I have brushed up against most on this site isn’t a wayward at all. They trigger me because I perceive that—unlike the members I just listed—they hide behind a false veil of logic and reason. Yet, the moment you scratch the surface of their argument, they default to claiming that logic is useless anyway and that everything is strictly about emotions. That would be fine but then I'd suggest maybe they should drop the pseudo-intellectual veil to begin with.

If I had posted Gemmy's thread and someone came along to debate the idea that waywards are truly just "validation prostitutes," I would find that incredibly helpful. If you start with the premise that a wayward partner is claiming validation was the primary reason for having sex with someone else—and that the sex itself was entirely irrelevant—then analyzing whether a betrayed spouse should accept that claim at face value is deeply important. It helps clarify your thoughts on the situation. I am hopeful that our discussion is doing exactly that for him, or if not for him, then at least for other readers following along.

My perspective obviously won't resonate with everyone, but if my understanding of human nature is correct, I am certainly not the only person who thinks this way.

But there you go—you successfully baited a response out of me. Just know that in the future, you aren't entitled to one. If I choose to ignore what you're saying, it is fully within my prerogative. It doesn't mean I've "run," it just means I find it entirely fruitless to argue about topics that aren't going to be helpful to other users.

That being said, have a great week. I don't have an ounce of ill will in my body for you.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 9:53 AM, Friday, July 3rd]

Thanks. I like the way my brain works.

Maybe my perception is biased, but I do feel like this site is pretty balanced when it comes to divorce vs reconciliation... The problem with the whole question a BS comes to find themselves facing (and we've explored this in other threads) is that even after such a severe betrayal as infidelity, emotional attachment to a person and their relationship often remains. Then they find themselves wrestling with their principles-- of justice, self-respect, forgiveness, fidelity-- when the mind says "leave!" and the heart says "No, stay..."

Generally the advice here seems to be to take your time making the decision, and if you have any inclination towards R&R with your spouse, then you should begin evaluating their candidacy, and see whether that is possible and prudent for you. To give it a chance, so that even if you move forward with D in the future, at least you gave it your best shot to honor your heart and to try to supply it with what it wanted, and there is less room for regretful, "What if I had tried...?" type thinking. Because once you fully end a relationship with someone, the likelihood of gaining it back afterwards decreases significantly, and continues to decrease the longer you are separated, as the separation gets emotionally processed and the attachment is gradually deconstructed (or sometimes, not-so-gradually demolished.)

So, I think because of that, there might be a slight lean towards attempted reconciliation first, but then I see a lot of folks unafraid to point it out when a WS's behavior looks unpromising for R. I also see some members express what a hard time they are having processing their feelings, and then. being told "Maybe D would be better, if you find yourself unable to get through that in proximity to your WS." And if that's what the BS chooses, then there is a supportive community of those who also chose D.

But that's the overall process.

I'm not a fan on what feels like a piling up on the Dr here. I know it sounds biased coming from myself as I happen to see where he is coming from and actually share a lot of his views. (I think anyway, as I only skim the longer posts tbh) I mean, if you feel someone's posts are thread-jacks that are not serving the OP at all, then just call THAT out. I certainly don't think the Dr's views are that unusual away from SI however by any means.

@Unhinged, you are a BH who professes a lot of empathy on here for WWs. Or at least that's my read. I think that is a kind of rare view amongst BHs in general. I also think that many many posters on SI view WSs as addicts, whereas I basically just see people going behind their partner's back with malicious glee. Maybe not everyone but most WSs. It is what it is.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 5:07 PM, Friday, July 3rd]

There isn't malicious glee for every WS though. I never said a bad word about my H to my AP (nor to friends, but I don't have any of those, really.) I know I was riddled with guilt, before, during, and after my A. There were many sleepless nights and lots of nightmares... I wish I hadn't done it, and I wish we didn't need a DDay, but in a way, being discovered was a relief. It gave me the strength to break it off with the AP, and shook me out of my delusion.

I believe others who say their WS took glee from the deception, or who say the betrayal was malicious in nature (and I'm aghast by those descriptions.) But that's not all of us. And I don't think it's helpful for any BS to be told their WS is like that if there's no evidence of it. Just adds unnecessary insult to injury.

I can indeed have sympathy and compassion for an alcoholic, because I can see that they are already really really hurting themselves as much as their loved ones.

I think the sentiment of what you just wrote is much of what seems to divide your position from some of the softer voices here. In the realm of infidelity, you are taking the position that the offender is just a hedonistic selfish prick, knowingly and happily sowing destruction on everyone around them. But in the case of alcohol, you tend to see someone self destructing.

I think both of those are accurate, but incomplete, perspectives. If you aren’t familiar with it, look up the parable of the blind men examining an elephant. We all see partially.

I can tell you as a child of an alcoholic that it is most certainly not contained to mere self destruction. The codependency that you called out in me came from that man and the awfulness his choices created in my family. Yes, he harmed himself, and yes, he betrayed me and many others in doing it.

And on the flip side, what our formerly wayward friends keep telling us is that while there is certainly an element of pleasure and hedonism in an affair, it is also self destructive. We as betrayed resonate to our core with the outward blast of destruction. But like the junky, they are taking a sledge hammer to the foundations of their soul.

And you are not required to have sympathy for that. I think it’s a valid posture to have nothing but scorn. But, at the very least, maybe consider that the softer stance taken by many here comes from a very similar place as your sympathy for an alcoholic.

Several years ago there was a group of BHs in the JFO Forum who became known as the "Burn the Witch" crowd. They were extremely opposed to reconciliation, took every possible opportunity to demonize WWs, and quite often viciously berated any BH even considering reconciliation (occasionally to the point of outright immasculation). This was during a time in American culture when "Red Pill" males were gaining prominence, which has lead, in part, to the "Manosphere" culture we see today. To say that this crowd was disrespectful and disruptive is an understatement.

When I see any hint of that chaos and nonsense returning to this community I will oppose it in any way I can without hesitation.

All of that being said, it is encouraging to have seen your interactions with hikingout have a positive impact on your recovery and growth. I hope that you continue to learn from her and the others you've mentioned. I've BTDT with a few members as well (years ago).

You may not believe this DRSOOLERS, but despite all of the pushback you've received from me, I still hope that your journey here will help you to heal from the conflicts you have with your father. That lingering pain is palpable in everything you write. I understand it more than you know.

...you are a BH who professes a lot of empathy on here for WWs. Or at least that's my read. I think that is a kind of rare view amongst BHs in general.

I have a lot of empathy for everyone on this site. And honestly, despite being divorced, I still feel a lot of empathy for my ex-wife.

(As a small caveat here, I don't have much empathy for WS who lack empathy, compassion, or a willingness or ability to own and fix their shit).

I have one goal with this community: to do what I can to help members find their own way forward and to find peace beyond the shitstorm.

DRS, we are not on opposite sides of the coin at all. We have been looking at the exact same side this entire time. I and everyone else here have repeatedly said that sex can be great, even amazing, and better in some cases. Not a single person has denied that. We all understand that cheaters lie by default, and we know they will follow the script to deny, hide, and minimize what they did.

But you are missing the reason this plane took off in the first place. This began because Gemmy was sorting through the realization that his WW was in it for the validation, treating sex as a transaction, something closer to emotional prostitution. As did I. As did most waywards. The concepts of better sex or lying about physical pleasure were not even part of his post or thought process until you inserted them, almost taking a totalitarian stance, and insisted his view , along with mine and others was flawed.

Your argument did not land because you were not even on the same flight course as the rest of us. You cannot state personal opinions as absolute facts when your only evidence is discomfort with a narrative being used too often. To claim that decades of marriage counseling, social research, and behavioral psychology are just a cultural myth is wild. Why? Because the experts are all wayward sympathizers? Hell, I am not a wayward sympathizer either, but I do care about the human condition, and I care about how psychology actually works.

When a WS says afterward that it was not about the sex or the sex wasn't even that good, they are not always reading from a script to save face. For many, it is the truth. Once you strip away the dopamine cocktail of new person inflating your ego, the physical act becomes hollow. People do not risk their entire life because the sex was slightly better. They do it because of something inside them.

You say you are guided by logic and reason, but ignoring the psychological earthquake that causes the wreckage is not logical. It is just projection.

If you insist on analyzing the human condition with a rigid, surface-level cost-benefit formula, you will keep missing the point. True logic demands that you look at the entire equation, including the parts that are uncomfortable to you. When you reduce a person down to just wanting a cheap thrill, you're just making the wreckage easier for yourself to digest and you build a rigid world where everything is strictly black and white.

But real life doesn’t operate in binaries, and real healing doesn't happen in an echo chamber of absolute certainties.If your version of "logic" only functions when you strip away the actual humanity and psychological deficits of the people involved, then it isn't logic at all.

​It’s just a gavel masquerading as an argument.

I don't believe the experts either though. If it goes against my gut, as far as I'm concerned its wrong.

I don't believe the experts either though. If it goes against my gut, as far as I'm concerned its wrong.

I'm not entirely shocked to see you say this.

But feelings aren't facts.

Your gut can tell you how something feels, but it cannot override decades of clinical research, behavioral patterns, and the lived experiences of thousands of people who have done the actual work.

When you say you do not believe experts because it goes against your gut, what you are really saying is that you prefer a narrative that feels emotionally satisfying over one that is psychologically accurate. That is not clarity. That is confirmation bias dressed up as conviction.

You can reject that if you want. You can decide your gut is the ultimate authority. But that does not make it true. It only means you are choosing emotional comfort over psychological accuracy.

@DRSOOLERS:

** Member to Member **

The reason I am on this forum is that when I was going through my own circumstances, I saw almost no representation of the ideas or the mindset that I held, which made me feel rather alone.

Let me ask a few questions.

What do you get from a discussion of WSes's motinves, especially when you've already decided that WSes cheat in order to get the pleasure that As give them?

Are you actually wondering why your XGF cheated, if she did actually cheat? If so, how does reading about, say, hikingout's motivations help you know your XGF's?

Do you still feel alone? What makes you different from other BSes? What makes you the same?

Has SI changed you? If so, what's different?

Do you question your mindset? If not, why not? After all, good logic requires attempting to disprove conclusions, too....

You know what's going on inside of you better than I do, but my reading comprehension has always been pretty good in the past. My reading of your words may be more accurate than yours.

*****

IMO, without the need for external validation, my W would not have cheated. If that judgment is correct, her A can be viewed as being all about external validation.

As for sex, W says initially it was great, but it rapidly became a chore. It was not hedonism that kept the A going.

My W is clearly not alone. The reports of so-so - different, not better - sex are too common to ignore.

My reco is to stop attributing all As to hedonism. It may be an aspect of some As, but I haven't seen many WSes post on SI that great sex was the reason for the As.

*****

You asserted that we are definitely not representative of all people impacted by infidelity.

I agree that we are self-selected. I'd agree that we are probably not representative. But self-selection does not necessarily mean we're not representative.

We don;t have good statistics on the populations impacted by infidelity, so there's no way to know if we're representative or not.

This is yet another case of bad logic, DRS. I think you'vedrawn a lot of conclusions about infidelity because of unrecognized emotions, and that has led you astray. If you take account of your emotions - and presuppositions, my W would say - you'll reduce fallacious thinking. That's one of the reasons I ask if SI has changed you and if you question your mindset.

*****

And I agree with Unhinged and foreverlabeled in their critiques.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:22 AM, Saturday, July 4th]

Morbs, is not entirely correct that the mind says "leave " and the heart says "stay".

They both say both things. That’s why you feel literally torn.

The mind might be just a little more rational in seeing the positive of breaking up with a cheater and the risk of trying to reconcile, but it is as torn as the emotions and will contribute to the roller coaster.

There isn't malicious glee for every WS though. I never said a bad word about my H to my AP (nor to friends, but I don't have any of those, really.)

The thing is while you are enjoying your self with your affair partner there’s about nothing that can feel more maliciously gleeful towards you.

Speaking Badly of you? That’s not even registering, is like worrying for a mosquito bite after being hit by an explosion.

It’s a feeling of annihilation that is hard to process or explain if you didn’t suffer it.

On the other hand once you detach you see from the angle "is just two sad adults being filthy and having a fuck afraid to do it in the open. Unworthy of my time both of them ".

So you can skew the scale of the feelings depending upon the emotional charge and the processing of pain.

There will be a ping pong towards one or the other side for a while if you don’t leave your wayward. Emotions and logic until you settle for one or the other decision.

The place were it truly sucks is being stuck in the middle. You need to tilt it for a chance to heal.

That’s why I think a BS tends to watch and scrutinize their wayward, is not necessarily hope, more like "give me a clue to see who you truly are, so I can finally leave this hell or find a good reason to recommit and risk it all again ".

Is messy and mixed coming from fear, anger, love, disgust, empathy, memories of happiness, pain…. A real messy sandwich garnished with obsessive thinking and evaluation

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 7:54 PM, Friday, July 3rd]

The conotation of "malicious" implies intent to do harm. I didn't think to myself, "I'm gonna have myself an affair to fuck my husband up..." nor was there in any way glee surrounding his deception and betrayal. He was collateral damage, and it induced a massive amount of guilt and internal conflict in me from start to finish.

I hear the rest of what you're saying.

Speaking Badly of you? That’s not even registering, is like worrying for a mosquito bite after being hit by an explosion.

I'll push back on you a little bit here. For me, yes, the affair itself was very destructive. The mental images and mind movies alone are brutal and maybe the worst part of it all, but the sneaking around, lying, and including me in her scheme to end up in bed with him was bad.

I was manipulated into giving her a ride to go spend the night with him on d day. She recruited me to actually help in my own deception and that hits hard. Really, really hard.

That, and reading some of the negative things she said about me in messages while propping him up on a pedestal. Telling her friend how much she loved him was almost equally as devastating. It was the straw that almost broke my back.

It was much more than a mosquito bite after the explosion. More like almost equal aftershocks following an earthquake.

I'm actually pretty hung up on the things she said and did almost as much as the act itself. It's made my recovery SO much harder.

[This message edited by Pogre at 9:21 PM, Friday, July 3rd]

But feelings aren't facts.

Your gut can tell you how something feels, but it cannot override decades of clinical research, behavioral patterns, and the lived experiences of thousands of people who have done the actual work.

When you say you do not believe experts because it goes against your gut, what you are really saying is that you prefer a narrative that feels emotionally satisfying over one that is psychologically accurate. That is not clarity. That is confirmation bias dressed up as conviction.

You can reject that if you want. You can decide your gut is the ultimate authority. But that does not make it true. It only means you are choosing emotional comfort over psychological accuracy.

I must be living in a bubble then. Going by what I have read from the BHs on here and my own personal observations, I have observed WWs seemingly talking about their affairs and their clueless BHs one way *before* they are caught, and then in another way *after* they are caught when there are consequences. I draw my conclusions from that.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 11:36 PM, Friday, July 3rd]

Okay, but not all of us are like that.

I must be living in a bubble then.

Yes, a bubble created by your own tunnel vision.

​No one is saying that what you're describing doesn’t happen. It absolutely does. WH and WW alike, WS are incredibly cruel, selfish, and abusive while deep in the A.

That isn't the debate here. We are talking about the psychology of validation and sex and a little bit about the human condition.

The conotation of "malicious" implies intent to do harm. I didn't think to myself, "I'm gonna have myself an affair to fuck my husband up..."

Of course not.

I know personally a number of cheaters, I am aware they tend to remove their partners from the picture while they are cheating with the current Ap, is like putting them aside in a back corner, a parallel box for the time they are with the other person.

Some AP are turned on by hearing about the betrayed partner (feel like winners "chosen ") others the opposite, and don’t want to hear about the bs. I imagine the ws tends to feed the AP the kind of validation that works with them.

I told you how it is perceived from the other side, it feels malicious regardless of what your intention was. A mirror perspective does not invalidate the specular side, it adds nuance, a piece of the puzzle you might not have yet.

Perception and feelings don't necessarily match the other party’s intention.

I'll push back on you a little bit here. For me, yes, the affair itself was very destructive. The mental images and mind movies alone are brutal and maybe the worst part of it all, but the sneaking around, lying, and including me in her scheme to end up in bed with him was bad.

It’s what I meant. That part is the nuclear bomb over your bond. That your partner may also speak poorly of you besides that it’s surely an additional sting but nothing in comparison to the treachery.

Simply put i kind of take in the account at some point of the affair if the matter of the Bs comes up, the wayward will talk some "kind of shit" about the relationship to excuse and legitimize the affair.

Doesn’t need to be trashing the Bs , it can be very well "my partner is a great person…. But… " . It’s in the menù among the appetizers. whether it’s light or heavy doesn’t really matter as much as the full course meal, is just an additional sting that is irrelevant in the bigger picture.

Take it as a personal view of mine, of course it can be felt much worse for others. In my case even if my girlfriend was singing my praises left and right about "how great partner I am" to her Ap…. Well she still fucked the other guy.

And lied, deceived me and so on. What do I care if she was telling "I suck" or "I am amazing " at that point?

Yes it’s adding insult to injury, but if I get shot I don’t really feel better of worse if my shooter also "rolled eyes" before pulling the trigger.

Obviously my personal perspective, some other might find the most important aspect, the unforgivable thing, to not be ill spoken by their WS before - during- after the adultery and deception. And nigh be kind of okayish to forgive adultery or deception.

I am just a bit skeptical but who knows, we’ve seen things!

@Pogre - buddy I hear you, you know I know I read the same kind of shit from my wayward once she opened her messages and accounts to my review.

It is a hit but we knew it all along didn’t we? Just reading it directly from the time the treachery was going on hits you because you get dragged back then and wonder why you didn’t do anything before and all that stuff.

That’s the trauma echoing back from his birth day. But of course we know they speak about us with the AP (otherwise why the secrecy? Both know they are cheating, no bull) and they must somehow devalue us to justify their choice and make the Ap either feel chosen and engaged, or justify to their conscience.

If they didn’t it would not be an affair it would be out in the open from the get go.

But infidelity is like that, you must be dehumanized to be betrayed. Nobody wants to feel like the villain, so we can’t be "good " when the narrative is built.

Yep seeing and reading is worse than imagining. I know. Don’t forget my wayward’s AP posted amateur porn he secretly filmed with a webcam. There’s is various prostitues but also my wayward in those. I let you imagine how cool is to see that but is worse than the shit she wrote

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 7:38 AM, Saturday, July 4th]